Serious Question for everyone…..about Hip Hop, Minstrelsy, and White People

Filed Under Black/African American Issues, Blackface Parties, Original Essays and Analysis, Pop Culture, Race and Racism, Serious Questions, Uncategorized by Rachel

I’ve been out in full force this weekend debating with people over the UConn law students party. I am amazed at how many whites and even a few blacks try to defend these themed “costume” parties. One refrain I keep getting over and over again is the “rappers dress like this, so it is Ok for white people to do this.”

Which leads me to my question(s)….Do you think modern day hip hop has played a role in the recent revival of minstrelsy and the proliferation of these parties? Do you think the “we are just copying rappers” excuse is acceptable, why or why not? And last, if you think these parties are wrong, how would you explain this to a white person who thinks that it’s harmless and s/he is just copying rappers?

Here are a few quotes of my own, when I have been arguing over this issue…..

At Mirror on American I said,

While I think many rappers, record execs, and fans are culpable in some for their actions in promoting minstrelsy, I think whites anti-black attitudes predate this.

At Alas I said,

I think all of these whites who want to wear what they are calling �ghetto� or �rap� clothes should be required to go to a party where they are the only white person and wear those �costumes.�

It is an interesting point to note that what some black teenagers wear everyday as their normal attire is labeled as a costume. What is also funny is that if a Black person came to their party with a long white t-shirt, a pair of jeans and a Roca Wear jacket, they wouldn�t label it a costume. It speaks volumes about what white Americans think. It�s just like the Native American Mascot debate.

At a law student blog called Irish Trojan I engaged in a long drawn out debate. Here are a few quotes from me on the Irish Trojan blog,

I don�t think that one could argue that there is a �ghetto culture� that exists beyond stereotypes promoted in mass media. Moreover, I don�t think that you can disentangle the contemporary usage of the term �ghetto� from it�s racist connotations. A commenter above mentioned that Jews were concentrated into ghettos in Europe. This is the origin of the term ghetto, and I have yet to see ghetto applied to Jews in these parties, and I have yet to see any of these parties applied to stereotypes of whites. These parties specifically target African Americans. They reiterate some of the most racist ignorant stereotypes of African Americans, such as the young woman in Texas who wore an Aunt Jemima costume or the guy who had an �I love chicken T-shirt.�

People in the so called �ghetto� are diverse, and what you are defining as ghetto culture is really a sub-sample promoted by some hip hop artists and many media moguls who think this actually is how the vast majority of black people of all social classes live. Arguing that the typical working class or lower class Black person sits around all day eating fried chicken, drinking liquor, and shooting at people is absurd. The vast majority of white people spend no time living or working in low income black neighborhoods, and thus, we are generally unqualified to make judgments about what African American life is like. Anybody who believes that this reflects the everyday lives of people in the �ghetto� is being hoodwinked (pun intended).

Another Rachel quote from Irish Trojan,

Rap is also diverse, and we can�t make blanket statements about hip hop. There are some groups out there who seem to promote the most pernicious stereotypes of African Americans, but in addition to rappers, we also need to hold record companies and consumers responsible for promoting and consuming this. There are plenty of rappers/rap groups like Common, Talib Kweli, or Little Brother, who don�t promote these stereotypes, and the typical white American doesn�t identify with their messages; no, these consumers prefer 50 Cent and studio gangsters like Dr. Dre. So as you implied above, white America is largely responsible for disseminating and promoting this imagery. They sign these artists, hire a black producer to put some crazy minstrel show together, and then whites buy up these albums like crazy. This image of so called ghetto/rap culture is largely a product of mass media, not the real life experiences of low income Black people.

Rachel at Irish Trojan Again…

On another note, why not respect the opinions of the vast majority of African Americans, who find this behavior offensive. Terrence is saying he finds this behavior offensive, and some commenters just dismiss him as if his view isn�t valuable. Then, people wonder why African Americans get upset about these parties. Why not listen? Why not respect the people are are being lampooned, who are saying this behavior is harmful to them?

Moreover, there is a long history of blackface minstrelsy in this country that belittles African Americans, and it continues today with shows like Flavor of Love. If young white people understood this history and realized how remarkably similar their behavior is to the minstrel shows of the 1800s, then maybe they would have a better chance at understanding why it is so offensive.

More of my Irish Trojan comments,

I don�t disagree with you that a person�s intent matters, but I also think outcomes matter. For example, someone who drinks and drives, and subsequently gets into a fatal car wreck is held accountable for her/his actions. The results of her/his behavior. A similar standard should also be applied when it comes to racism. The �I didn�t mean to offend� argument has become such a knee jerk reaction among many white Americans that it happens damn near every time this kind of behavior is exposed. Why not think about the outcomes of our behavior? I think many whites are so caught up in our position as whites that we just can�t imagine how these types of parties affect African Americans.

One last quote from me on the Irish Trojan blog,

Brendan said �Your contention, I think, is that any satire of rap culture is inherently offensive.�
No, but I think satire requires a degree of insider knowledge. It is not easy to pull off, and quite frankly, the vast majority of satire has some sort of message about socially conscious message. I don�t really think the young people in these photos are trying to raise social consciousness.

As far as the idea of �rap culture,� I stand behind my statement that rap is diverse and always has been. There are some elements that have degenerated into a modern day minstrel show, and those happen to be the elements that are most loved by the stereotypical white American. Moreover, if you read my comments I don�t excuse this behavior on the part of the artists, but I note how record execs and consumers (mostly white) love this stuff.

Unfortunately, I don�t have a ton of time to debate this with you guys (I need to revise a journal article.), but I�ll leave with two comments. I am not at all convinced that these young whites holding these parties are compartmentalizing their stereotypes to just hip hop, which in the minds of many young people represents African American youth culture. I think when the typical American discusses hip hop, they are discussing an art form that is performed primarily by African Americans. Moreover, I�m also not convinced that these parties are about social commentary, critical of minstrelsy. They are about a bunch of young whites who think this is somehow funny and entertaining to get drunk and make fun of African Americans.

And one final point, on your statement about professionalism. Yeah, I think we can all agree that this was stupid and unprofessional.

I spent so much time doing all of this debating that I figured I needed to make this into a full blown post. Feel free to respond to my arguments or just the questions above.

Comments

28 Responses to “Serious Question for everyone…..about Hip Hop, Minstrelsy, and White People”

Tom on January 29th, 2007 3:40 pm

In reading Irish Trojan’s comments when he refers to “satire” and “white” record executives I kept thinking of the image of michael rappaport’s character ordering savion glover’s character to dance on the table to his amusement in spike lee’s Bamboozled.

I think Irish Trojan gave the most fair and objective assessment. It is all the liberalism and relativity/cloudy haze of American education that gets people to think color-blind and excuse what is hands-down obvious racism.

Remember that these law students will have institutional power once they pass the bar. And that institutional power is very adept at reproducing and reinforcing the white power structure.
admin on January 29th, 2007 3:53 pm

I guess I should make it clearer because those comments from irish Trojan are me. I didn’t put the others’ comments on my site, but if you read them, you can see who I was arguing with.
Tom on January 29th, 2007 4:47 pm

So Rachel…then I think you gave the fair and objective assessment.
student X on January 29th, 2007 7:07 pm

Rachels,

Rap music, no.

I’d wager: the social acceptability of identifying whith whiteness and othering basically everyone else.

Now,

The trick here is first: discrening the difference between the racism of the extremist and the ‘racism’ of the average American white

.Second: observeing any inconsistancy in the recognition of that difference.

Now, in light of the second, I observe that painting the racism of the average american white with the same tar-brush as the racism of the KKK is a move of obscurance; namly an obscurance of magnitude as a critical factor in judging the nastiness of a given racist action.

ok,

These incidents of ‘racism’ are not acceptable to *me*, but still, I observe that they are not of the same thing as actual hardcore racism, and that unfortunatly,These incidents of ‘racism’ (i.e UCONN) are socially acceptable in mainstream ‘white’ America simply b/c they see the difference between a mountain and a molehill.
student X on January 29th, 2007 7:15 pm

btw, I hope you get my play on words:

(the’mild’ racism is the mountain, the KKK’s is the molehill)
tom on January 29th, 2007 7:47 pm

Student X, good point: Do you think the “molehill” serves as a spectacle so the “mountain” can point at it and say and that’s the true problem…a few ignorant racial bigots and not the white power structure and so the “mountain” can wash its hands and maintain white supremacy by minimizing the “mountain” into a publicly identifiable “molehill”
student X on January 29th, 2007 8:19 pm

Exactly, Tom.

But furthermore, I’d say that the molehill decoy and it POC equivelents not only obscure the existance of a white power structure (that really benefits ruling-class whites and their talented tenth tokens) but also *reinforces* the tenability of the white power structure by painting it as universal and normal…the way things are, were, and will be.

Thoughts?
student X on January 29th, 2007 8:21 pm

btw, I refer to those tokens as the TTT, I think it rubs it in.
student X on January 29th, 2007 8:26 pm

also, I was badgering rachels for embellishing the malice of the racist college partier.
me on January 30th, 2007 5:38 am

Basically, I see far too many successful white rappers and white rapper wannabes who also wear these same costumes to consider this UConn party racist. And yes, they are costumes regardless of who is wearing it, just as my platform shoes, bell-bottom pants and poofy shirts were costumes back in the 70s.

Speaking of which, didn’t the disco fashions worn by whites originate in the black dance clubs as well? Not to mention, of course, white doo-wop groups of the 60s who wore the same cut of suits worn by black singers in the 50s.

The question boils down to this: Do blacks want whites to embrace their culture? Or, ignore it altogether?
links for 2007-01-30 at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on January 30th, 2007 11:57 am

[...] Serious Question for everyone�..about Hip Hop, Minstrelsy, and White People - Rachel�s Tavern “Do you think the �we are just copying rappers� excuse is acceptable, why or why not? And last, if you think these parties are wrong, how would you explain this to a white person who thinks that it�s harmless and s/he is just copying rappers?” (tags: costumes campusracism blackface hiphop) [...]
Sewere on January 30th, 2007 3:31 pm

me said

The question boils down to this: Do blacks want whites to embrace their culture? Or, ignore it altogether?

You know, at the last All Black People Meeting there was a huge debate on this very issue but it got so heated that we had to table it for the next meeting. I’ll be sure to send you the memo…

Do you really think that this issue can be boiled down to that simple question? Because in case you missed it, a lot of people who love hip hop (including a lot of non-black folk) were offended by these potrayals of black life. Perhaps, you should ask yourself why the default reference for Ghetto culture is black culture? And when it comes to music, white interlopers never dress up like Common, Mos Def, MC Lyte, Mystique, Black Thought, ?uestlove, Kanye West or Ludacris? Or are such questions pushing you to actually think about the diverse representations of the subsect of black music culture which is hip hop?
Tom on January 30th, 2007 3:42 pm

ME: These people are not celebrating the cultural contributions of African-Americans. They are mocking people of African-descent. The gangsta hip hop image is racialized propaganda designed (actually a co-opted art form) by “white” media executives, record producers, etc that functions to dehumanize people of African-descent and degrade women into sub-human bodytoys to satisfy the masculine insecurities of young “white” male consumers who view the videos and purchase the cds. It works out well for the “talented tenth” (as per studentX above) of the “white” capiltalist class because it reinforces the psychological superiority of “white” working-class men and eliminates the possibility that they might join together with people of African-descent and demand higher wages or health insurance. In business school parlance, this reduces payroll costs and the capitalist class goes home with larger and larger shares of the national income pie. The “white” worker may go home with less money, but he/she says to themselves “At least I am not black”, and the less money they go home with, the more important their white racial privilege becomes to them. And when the perception (not the reality..note mathematical impossibility by referencing population size) of “blacks taking my spot in law school” and you have an upper-class version of “putting on blackness” to celebrate whiteness.
Sewere on January 30th, 2007 9:15 pm

And can someone please tell me why (so far) it’s only white students who happen to set up these parties? If ridiculing people is so common why don’t we see cases where Black or Asian or Latino students party in white face mimicking white dominated rock or country music?

Does anyone else see the fallacy in the specious “it’s just mocking pop culture” argument?
Michael on January 30th, 2007 11:17 pm

Actually there are many other theme parties which are popular on campus . I mentioned The Sopranos in another thread . Are Blacks insulting Italians when they take part in such parties ?
Student X on January 30th, 2007 11:37 pm

Tom:

“white interlopers”"?!?!

see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP6qtSdHBAU

(I doubt that one can disagree w/Rakim Allah and finish with any ’street-cred’ left to spare)

btw, ‘the talented tenth’ was a phrase coined by WEB Dubois. bell hooks has observed its collusion with the white power structure/abandoment of poorer blacks in her book ‘Where We Stand: Class Matters”.

ME,

“Do blacks want whites to embrace their culture? Or, ignore it altogether?”

I think that question is misframed, namly along the lines of ‘their culture’.

Mike,

“Are Blacks insulting Italians when they take part in such parties ?”

HELL YEAH, but nobody cares about us Italians, remember, we run the mob , everybody knows that.

;)
me on January 31st, 2007 3:32 am

“a lot of people who love hip hop (including a lot of non-black folk) were offended by these potrayals of black life.”

They were offended. So what? Does anyone beyond the vocal extreme really care that someone was offended? Further, why should they care? Why should they conform to someone else’s world view?

Oh, OK. It’s ‘white privilege’. Many of the ‘white privileged’, however, do not feel that classism is a major concern, and they never will feel that way. To them, the whining of the so-called oppressed is a waste of energy that is better spent improving their lot rather than expecting others to do it for them.

That these pictures made Smoking Gun shows just how big a joke this is. A corporate website is manufacturing controversy with one side blowing up with predictable indignation and the other side getting a good laugh out of it. The entirety of Smoking Gun’s business model is based on this unchanging pattern.
Gandalph Mantooth on January 31st, 2007 6:25 am

Way past me bedtime. However, these parties have little to do with rap music. These parties have been going on within White social groups for years. The only differences are a) the costumes change with the times and b) the Internet allows these fools to be called on their crap. This isn’t about a “culture” but about race. Someone made the important observation about these people not chosing to dress like some highly visible MCs like Kanye West. They picked these 90’s visions of rap music for a particular reason, these costumes represent to them the “worst” of Black culture.

I’d explain that not only are they attempting to portray the most ignorant of stereotypes, they’re objectifying real people (my existentialism kicking in). If they sincerely believe they’re poking fun at rap stereotypes, then they’ve clearly confused culture and race.
Sewere on January 31st, 2007 2:07 pm

Me said,

Oh, OK. It�s �white privilege�. Many of the �white privileged�, however, do not feel that classism is a major concern, and they never will feel that way. To them, the whining of the so-called oppressed is a waste of energy that is better spent improving their lot rather than expecting others to do it for them.

Why of course, it’s about class NOT race, even though everyone Rachel and I and others have said race and class intersect, so that the potrayal is an even more racialized caricature of black folk.. But don’t let me stop you from derailing the argument at hand.

Oh and lest I forget, the “you’re being played by big corporate Smoking Gun” argument still does not take away from the fact that what these kids did was a clear racial caricature of what we’ve seen over and over again. But that isn’t the worst part, it’s those of your ilk who have the nerve to come and tell us what constitutes racism, as if we can’t tell the difference ourselves.

Nope, nothing going on here, just kids being kids.
Tom on January 31st, 2007 2:14 pm

ME: people who are on the receiving end of racial oppression do care…this is not “black” culture, this is not African-American culture…it is the “white” capitalist man’s version of reality, designed to dehumanize and further justify oppression of people of African-descent…it is the white supremacy’s (that is the united states of 500+ years occupied america) propaganda machine in its new format in the post civil rights era. Now the spectacle of the racist rituals practiced by “good ‘white’” college kids has been laid bare for all to see.

The less human you make an ethnic group appear, the more justifiable the violence enacted against that group.

Example: Few “whites” care about the massive and intentional incarceration of African-Americans since 1973 (the daily images of “blacks” you see on TV and Jerry Springer justify it in your mind b/c you believe “they are violent anyway” or “they have a bad culture and deserve such punishment”) or the use of military death squads (SWAT teams) patrolling civilian neighborhoods right here in the U.S. and frequently shooting 14 year old children in the back cause the cops thought he had a gun.
me on February 1st, 2007 12:28 am

“does not take away from the fact that what these kids did was a clear racial caricature”

Well, if you are going to accuse me of derailing the thread, at least get the nature of the derail correct. That being: “So what? They’re offended. Fine, be offended then. It’s not going to solve anything.”

Anyway, back to the classist perspective: Do you really think these kids care what race they offend? Pull a national holiday out of Ramadan, and you will see muslim theme parties. Make it about race if you want, but to these kids, anyone they view as inferior is suitable for mocking.
Student X on February 1st, 2007 12:45 am

Sewere,

We shouldn’t let our distaste for ‘ME’s apologa get in the way of observing the elements of me’s argument that are correct.

you said “Why of course, it�s about class NOT race, even though everyone Rachel and I and others have said race and class intersect”

They intersect now, sure.

But in this case, one is an outgrowth of the other. (The social construction of race/whiteness began in the Virginia colonies, ‘white’ being a *class* term, yada)

summary: racism is an unexpected consequence of the free market.

Thus, ME’s observation that

“Many of the �white privileged�, however, do not feel that classism is a major concern, and they never will feel that way. To them, the whining of the so-called oppressed is a waste of energy that is better spent improving their lot rather than expecting others to do it for them.”

Is really a hypothetical confession, namly that s/he is not concerned with deconstructing whiteness/capitalism and furthermore s/he fells that most whites share that view…

Me’s ilk simply do not want to get rid of white priv, because they fell that white priv isn’t really that bad; in their view: it should be ok to shame the blacks for their stupidity and general worthlessness in whatever way feels good at the spur of the moment, we run this country after all, and aren’t gonna let some (insert slur) take us down white power.

BTW, perhaps this isn;t just racism; but a cultural divide that goes beyond race. for example, I’m sure the tom Bill Cosby identifies with ‘white’ culture, while attempted rapper ‘lil whyte’ identifes w/ ‘black’ culture…perhaps, at times, much of ‘black’ ‘culture’ in America is reactionary to the ‘white norm’, perhaps sending this message:

hey whiteboy: you goofy, we blacks are cooler and have a superior culture.

The above message is likly to drive the ME’s of the world directly into the Stasstroup….(I challenge the superiority of Rap and aim that challange at rachels)
Gandalph Mantooth on February 2nd, 2007 3:42 am

Since when is Bill Cosby a “Tom?” Identifies with white culture? Huh?
Henry on February 2nd, 2007 1:46 pm

Since he started making public statements about poor black culture. It started with this. Now, of course, you see him consistently referred to as an uncle tom or house negro among a certain segment of the population. Sorta funny really if you think about it.
Gandalf Mantooth on February 2nd, 2007 4:05 pm

I know when the perception started (is there anyone who doesn’t?), I was asking rhetorically.
Henry on February 2nd, 2007 4:07 pm

I suggest you tag your questions then for easy comprehension. I’ve seldom seen rhetorical questions with ‘Huh?’ tacked on them.
tom on February 3rd, 2007 12:42 pm

Michael Eric Dyson’s book on Bill Cosby stretches back into his early career and his attempts at color-blindness (in media portrayals) after his days in I SPY. It is not just BC but a real class divide being played out within a racially oppressed group that has only expanded in size since the Civil Rights era. White power structure LOVES IT when BC or Condoleeza Rice critiques working-class African-Americans.
Ecto on February 13th, 2007 2:23 am

Basically, people copy each other - so whatever is the “in” thing - regardless of your DNA makeup - is based on your environment and its history. Nothing is wrong with having some fun - that’s what the rappers are doing.
Yes, darker people have been murdered, raped and basically USED by ancestors of the first Europeans here. Unfortunately, given an inch and most folks take the mile. Depending on the life you wish to lead - recognizing history helps guide your actions.
I’d hope that most people would see the world as a much bigger place - and we could all interact and have some fun!

Ecto
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