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Oct
15
The Modeling World is Unapologetically Racist
Filed Under Black/African American Issues, International Racism, Media Praises and Critiques, Race and Racism by Rachel
I read this article in the New York Times today.? Here’s a quote:
Nowadays the cultural landscape is well populated with actors, musicians, media moguls and candidates for the American presidency drawn from the 30 percent of the American population that is not white. Yet, if there is one area where the lessons of chromatic and racial diversity have gone largely unheeded, it is fashion. This reality was never plainer than during the recent showings of the womens spring 2008 collections in New York and Europe.
Although black women in the United States spend more than $20 billion on apparel each year, according to estimates by TargetMarketNews.com, it was hard to discern an awareness of this fact on the part of designers showing in New York, where black faces were more absent from runways than they have been in years.
Of the 101 shows and presentations posted on Style.com during the New York runway season, which ended a month ago, more than a third employed no black models, according to Womens Wear Daily. Most of the others used just one or two. When the fashion caravan moved to London, Paris and Milan, the most influential shows from Prada to Jil Sander to Balenciaga to Chlo and Chanel made it appear as if someone had hung out a sign reading: No Blacks Need Apply.
You can go read the full article at the link above, but I also thought it? would be ? interesting to note that the NYT isn’t the only media outlet talking about the completely white ensembles of models at major fashion shows.? Here’s a quote from an article in The Guardian:
I saw two black models and two Asian models during the whole of Milan fashion week - compared with hundreds of white ones. They were the same four I saw in New York. And in Paris it has been even worse. It is absolutely the norm for a show to be entirely Caucasian. If a black or Asian model is used it is either in a streetwear show, such as Babyphat in New York, or as a form of what the London-based Nigerian designer Duro Olowu calls “tokenism - you know, just the one black girl, and she’s usually wearing the crazy printed dress”. A good example of this was at the Dior show in Paris this week when the Asian model was assigned the Chinese-style dress. “Then these designers claim they get their ideas from the street or from Africa! It’s crazy!” says Olowu. “This is just not reflective of our time.”
A few similar articles have popped up in a German paper, The Daily Mail, and The Washington Post.
I guess it must have been very obvious to have so many “mainstream” (code word for white) media outlets notice how few? women of color were found in this year’s fashion shows.
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55 Responses to “The Modeling World is Unapologetically Racist”
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Time for the fashion world to recognize the beauty of all women. If they desire for women of color to wear their merchandise and view their fashion magazines, then they should also acknowledge beauty comes in all shades, and black, multiracial, and asian women should also be present on the runway…SIGH…
racism in the fashion industry is not new. When I was in high school both I and another African-American girl were taken on by a modeling agency that was responsible for *all* of the major talent (modeling/acting) from our area. I quickly grew tired of both the racist-colorism (it cycles sometimes very dark, sometimes very light; sometimes long cwavy/curly hair, sometimes short and “natural”) & the regular racism. I saw clearly how we were booked for locals while white models were booked for national and international, unless they needed an “exotic.” There were no Latin@s at the agency & the Asian girls never worked except for clearly Orientalist campaigns. My high school colleague was clearly more into it than me and sacrificed school for shoots thinking she too would be “discovered.” Well it is a lifetime later & racism and racist colorism still exists in the industry, with even fewer models of color being used (as if the 2-3 per decade was a lot). The agency moved to a better location but not before launching the careers of at least 12 white local girls I know of, all of whom have gone on to critically acclaimed tv series, regular tv movie work, and a few to screen work. As for my black high school colleague, she never even left our hometown let alone got that big break from the wild haired local JC Penny ad. She runs an inherited family restaurant and local people of color go there and reminisce about the time she wore her Mini Mouse dress from the Disney shoot all day around town. The few other black girls in the agency have all gone back to normal lives. Me, I am a college professor & tho I occasionally rock the high fashion gear in my classroom (to my students great amusement), I am quite happy being infamous for my brain rather than my anorexia, violent episodes, the size & shape of my features, and supposed beauty.
Clearly, the modeling/fashion industry is the last bastion of white supremacy. White audience have very racist views about beauty which is why one doesn’t see many Black, biracials, and Asian women featured in ads, covers, beauty campaigns, and runway. The industry is very white supremacist and is upholding an image of whiteness.
What say you?
Stephanie B.
Not only racist, but ageist and size-ist. The fact that the clothes, jewellery etc. worn by women - who do not represent most women either physically or culturally - are unfit to wear in everyday life, shows that the industry is just a farcical party for a bunch of fascist snobs who don’t benefit society or fashion at all.
Okay… this subject hits close to home, because I’m interested in a career in the fashion industry as a possible buyer/personal stylist… what could I do to help make changes?
From a financial standpoint, it’s not a tragedy. I’d prefer to see those women financing their own major clothing lines and conducting viable, revenue generating in the US, the Caribbean and on the continent (ya know, Africa).
If women who spend $20 billion per year need validation or jobs from whites and showcases in Europe, they need to go to the same head shrinker who needs to inform professional athletes and entertainers that being a $40 million slave is not “cool.”
From a basic economic standpoint, the integration of consumers into mature markets saps the capacity of developing groups to grow competitive products which can sustain a place in the market. This is why the British, the US and other nations were protectionist when their industries were young and “free traders” when their industries matured. They want access to markets, resources and consumer dollars.
Now is not the time to be complaining about a modeling job or being prominently featured in Europe selling clothes made by non-Blacks…unless - your primary goal is to buy other people’s shit for the next few generations, beg for jobs and complain about racism. This isn’t like the 1940’s when Black women didn’t have sufficient capital to blow folks out of the water…the money is there. The expertise is there.
Would these women and men rather lament the loss of Black faces on a runway in Europe or build an industry that can hire, educate, and provide living wages for an entire generation of Black girls and boys? Hmmm. Some choice.
Complaining about this is not inappropriate, but it comes with a cost. It’s right to voice opposition here, but there are consequences. It is likely to make young Black firms more vulnerable to the momentary “inclusion” of mature firms - unless there is some serious thinking/coordination by the protesters and the Black business community.
I’m confused, the solution to racism in an industry is to develop a segregated competing one? Black owned businesses and entrepreneurialship have existed throughout the regions you mention (especially the content of Africa where black people are the majority and the Anglophone Caribbean, where again black people are the majority). Female headed, black owned businesses provide the Shea that goes into innumerable products sold to the Western markets. Female headed black owned businesses provide training to rural communities in Africa for new architecture, welding, and sustainable wheel chairs & crutches that ensure internal production and access for regional populations. In the industry in question, there are black clothing lines, black seamstresses, black owned clothing shops, black owned websites for global online ordering, etc. Beyond the self-sufficiency of these and other projects, micro-lending is a long established development tool in the regions you mention, and tho problematic, also foster innumerable businesses owned by black people in and outside of the diaspora.
The point, & I have two here: 1. segregation does not dismantle racism it upholds it. You cannot confront nor dismantle racism without confronting it. These businesses have little impact on the perception of black people and black labor. They do not dismantle global hiring and marketing policies nor disrupt global lending policies that, unlike the money in the modeling industry, do in fact leave black women and men trapped by them in poverty. 2. the assumption that there is no black industry, especially in Africa, is a function of racism which leads people to believe that black people are labor (disposable labor) perpetually exploited and exploitable. The issues you raise about economics and competition are far too complex to deconstruct in a blog comment, but let us be clear the absence of viable black competitive markets is neither universally true nor a function of black failure on the global stage. Predatory lending, neo-colonial extensions of colonial wealth, center and periphery (however problematic those theories are) politics, and purposeful underdevelopment are some of the main causes of the disparity you are pointing to and all of them are predicated on racism. The other issue I see here is the idea that global capitalism is something black markets should strive for, and thus internal markets success or failure is ignored. Global capitalism relies on an unceasing and unequal consumption of goods, services, and people, I am not sure that buying into such a system would do anything to dismantle racism but rather shift that racism from the new African Haves to the new stigmatized people of color Have nots.
[...] Rachel’s Tavern piece on this subject - brought to my attention by Stephanie B. (thanks!) [...]
prof black woman:
PBW -
Let me attempt to clear up some of that confusion.
1. “the solution to racism in an industry is to develop a segregated competing one?” - is not the solution I proposed. I could see why you thought that was my intention. While my argument makes no such mention of those terms, it is probably similar (on the surface) to arguments you have an abiding opposition to. I’m guessing here.
In any event, I am suggesting the solution of Black-owned firms entering a market with relatively low barriers to entry serving international clientele. The concept of segregation, here, is entirely your own. The concept of a “segregated industry” doesn’t actually make sense since there would be no point to Black firms restricted product sales to Blacks. Perhaps you’d care to define your concept. Otherwise, we can leave it at that.
If it is your belief that Blacks should not own firms which compete internationally, that’s another topic. I’d certainly like to hear more about that.
2. I am aware that Black folk are conducting business in the regions I mentioned - we’ve only been doing that since the dawn of time. Let’s not belabor that.
The issue with respect to Black business, however, is that many of our businesses are undercapitalized precisely we do not invest sufficient revenues in those businesses. Of course this related to our economic and military history over the past few centuries…that’s obvious. The question is whether or not Black folks income, wages and wealth should be directed in any way, shape or form to the develop of firms with the capacity to lead - and hire and feed our own folks. My post in no way suggests there is NO action being taken - but the action to date is insufficient. And that’s not an indictment of the people who are working hard in undercapitalized businesses in the US, Africa or the Caribbean - it’s an indictment of the consumers who prefer to shop and beg.
3. “1. segregation does not dismantle racism it upholds it. You cannot confront nor dismantle racism without confronting it.”
You will note that I agree it is appropriate to contest these actions. Won’t you? I, however, maintain that protest comes with a cost. If we don’t disagree that is appropriate to confront racism, perhaps we can move to a discussion of the consequences of consumerism supplanting investment.
4. “2. the assumption that there is no black industry, especially in Africa, is a function of racism which leads people to believe that black people are labor (disposable labor) perpetually exploited and exploitable.” Here again, the assumption is your own. It is certainly not something that I said. After all, this conversation is really about the investment choices of adults with sufficient revenues to provide unprecedented alternatives to an entire generation. We’re not talking about folks scraping by on the salaries of a domestic - we’re talking about CEO’s and VP’s and professors and folks with loot, connections and knowledge who actively forego the opportunity to build every time they sit down to a counter at Bergdorf’s.
Finally, and I apologize for the wordiness here (I wanted to give some depth)…
“The other issue I see here is the idea that global capitalism is something black markets should strive for, and thus internal markets success or failure is ignored. Global capitalism relies on an unceasing and unequal consumption of goods, services, and people, I am not sure that buying into such a system would do anything to dismantle racism but rather shift that racism from the new African Haves to the new stigmatized people of color Have nots.”
You’re kidding right. Do you really think it’s impossible for Black folks to enter these industries without cultivating a viable, ethical model? Seriously? New business models are popping up every day that have international dimensions, but are not contingent on exploitation. There is a way to do this - folks need to work this out. The goal is not to displace these European/American firms overnight. The goal is to provide a viable alternative that honors consumers, producers and our shared environment.
“(it cycles sometimes very dark, sometimes very light; sometimes long cwavy/curly hair, sometimes short and natural)”
Of course it cycles…what was it supposed to do - become institutionalized and displace the daughters of the folks who pay the bills?
When your livelihood is contingent on the TASTES of others, you live at the razor’s edge. You’d think there were enough marginalized women of color and non-scrawny women to end this nonsense - but the power of the image is absolutely overwhelming - and it’s killing our daughters.
It’s not the ‘racism’ of the industry that’s problematic - it’s the whole damn paradigm. It can be done differently and better - and there is a place for Black, Asian, Indian and many other types of firms in that work.
[...] Fashion Industry Over at Rachel’s Tavern, there is an interesting discussion about racism in the fashion industry.? Several international [...]
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2804627,00.html
[Advertising campaigns are made for the world market, and only models who appeal to the whole world are considered, she said.
"A black model does not appeal to Asia," Killinger said. "There are also stories that there isn't necessarily much love between the Arabs and blacks."
The fashion industry is about identification and customers prefer to dream about a blonde, tall and slim girl, rather than someone who is black, Killinger said.]
That pretty much sums it up. Asian countries like China and India alone have a combined population of 2.5 billion (approx). Now that is huge. And I havent included the other Asian countries and the mid-east. The American population is a paltry 300 million. China and India are the next superpowers.
The fashion industry simply cannot afford to neglect Asia and the mid-east. So whether Americans like it or not the fashion industry has to give preference to the likes and dislikes of Asians and mid-easterners. Its business after all. The Indians have an obsession with fair skin and we find chiseled features more attractive. We are not into flat noses, jumbo lips and frizzy hair. Before all you Americans start squealing racist, let me tell you that I am a colored man and I dont hate anybody.
Id also like to point out the self-taught experts and self-proclaimed champions of multi-culturism and diversity that their melting-pot eradicates both. Eventually what we will get is brown-skinned people with black hair and brown eyes. The white race is the only race which has people with blue, green, hazel, brown eyes and the only race which has people with blonde, auburn and brown hair. Its really sad that the most diverse white race is dwindling and everybody is worried about saving the gorillas and pandas and fighting global warming.
Lastly, the Jewish Student Union, Black Student Union, Vietnamese Student Union, Asian American Student Union, Latino Student Union and American Indian Student Union are all legitimate and lauded student organizations. No one thinks that any of these groups are bigoted or ignorant. But you Americans who proudly claim to be against all kinds of racism and bigotry wont let White people have their unions. Isnt this blatant racism against White people? Shame on you racists!
Vijay Coomar
New Delhi
Jeeze Vijay, you’re one self hating Indian, not to mention anti-Black racist.
>Before all you Americans start squealing racist, let me tell you that I am a colored man and I dont hate anybody.
When you run into someone claiming that non-white people can’t be racist… Please, Think of Vijay and sigh.
I can’t even get into how much stupid is in his post. Suffice it to say that he doesn’t get out much, no matter where he’s from. I guess Afghanis with blue eyes don’t exist in his world, hunh? Or the Ainu? Or the Mandans? Interesting (= limited = bland = tiny) world he lives in…
Nice work Vijay. You’ve ignored the history of your own nation in a self-abnegating paean to the ignoble proclivities of white supremacism. What’s worse - you had the temerity to dress it up as intellectualism.
Somewhere the ancestral mothers and fathers of your land - the ones who built Mohenjo Daro - are “rolling over” on their pyres.
You’ve studied your Bhagavad Gita well. Brahmins up, hoes down. You’ve sipped Aryan Kool-Aid and delivered a death blow for rational anti-racism all over the sub continent. Take a bow.
If you ever snap out of it, come visit - we’ll take a walk on the African side of India.
Temple - I don’t mean to belabor the point here, and I will do the anti-flame thing and stop talking about it after this point b/c this is not my blog, but I need to clarify that:
1. I never championed nor invented segregated markets. Your comment as originally written claimed the need for markets run by black folk to combat racism in markets run by white folks that is the definition of segregated markets (look up the literature if you are unfamiliar)
2. We do not agree that black people do not invest in black markets or black products. I think they do and I think there is a vast literature and documentary film record of this supporting the obvious common sense of it.
3. I never said black people cannot compete in a global market, I said global capitalism is based on exploitation and that buying in to global capitalism is buying in to the exploitation. Of course there are alternative market strategies, and many of the businesses I mentioned in my comments use them.
I will gladly apologize for using common usage (at least in economic theory) shorthand to address the issues I read in your original comments. I will ask that you not misrepresent that usage as somehow invented nor make claims about my distinctions between alternative markets and global capitalism as some sort of internalized racism against black owned business since clearly a close read of my comments stands against any such assertion. (Why would I champion black markets if I thought there shouldn’t be any?)
I hope this brings clarity. As I said, I have neither addressed your new points nor will I post any more clarifying comments as I would like to avoid a flame war on someone else’s blog. I am trusting you to make any more clarifications you feel necessary without putting offensive/racist assertions in my mouth (such as black people cannot compete on a global stage) and others to read my comments to cross check if you do.
“The Indians have an obsession with fair skin and we find chiseled features more attractive. We are not into flat noses, jumbo lips and frizzy hair.”
Vijay Coomar from New Delhi,
You obviously have not seen Mississippi Masala!!!
Patronizingly polite. I guess we’re done.
This thread is about the fashion industry, not about history and religion. So I will not discuss the Indus Valley Civilization or the Bhagwad Gita. And the argument that I am a self-hater simply because I prefer white skin is totally lame. Let me repeat this again- I am against all forms of racism. The fashion houses are not NGOs. They need to do business and make money. The fact is that Asians and mid-easterners dont find black people attractive and the modeling agencies know it very well. Deal with it and please tell Naomi Campbell to stop playing the race card.
BTW, you smart Americans still have not answered my question. Why Whites are not allowed to form exclusive groups, yet non-whites are encouraged to do so? Racist is a nice word to denounce and humiliate white people when they are proud of their race.
I live in India and I know more about my country than you Americans. Mississippi Masala wasnt a mainstream (Bollywood) movie. It didnt do well in India and consequently flopped. If you have the time please find out more about our Indian movie starts. All of them are fair. Infact, the biggest Bollywood star Shah Rukh Khan, is the brand ambassador for a skin whitening cream called Fair & Lovely and it sells like hot cakes here.
Down with Racism.
Vijay Coomar
New Delhi
Why would a knowledgeable Indian man who resides in his country discuss the “white skin” preference (at length, and with the intent of being flippant and disparaging) in his nation, yet run from a conversation about Mohenjo Daro and the Bhagavad Gita?
Perhaps you believe the India in which you reside has always been that way. Perhaps you know it is much safer for you to avoid this discussion because it rock the very foundation of the skin-color preference you so glibly espouse. Perhaps it’s because you know your country today - but have no real idea of it yesterday.
Whatever your reason Vijay, if you wish to soley talk about hem lines and the like, you should limit your comments. If you prefer to step out of your little box, handle your business and don’t whine about folks fully addressing topics you’ve introduced.
(and since there will be “flaming” here - this is the kinder, gentler blog (I think), feel free to pick this up at my spot. i don’t want to upset the furniture.)
Who spells “soley” like that? Honestly! Haste makes waste. Apologies to the wordsmiths.
“The white race is the only race which has people with blue, green, hazel, brown eyes and the only race which has people with blonde, auburn and brown hair.”
You, as a Desi (if you indeed are) have to know that this statement is patently false… unless Australian Aborigines and Aishwarya Rai are white, this year…. hell, my sister’s hair is auburn, and she’s as dark as Naomi. And if whites are indeed “browning” (which is your belief, not mine), wouldn’t it then follow that people like you (”colored” people, as you so archaically put it) with a preference for white looks are directly contributing to the “extinction” of the white race through an aesthetic worship that often manifests itself in romantic overtures towards whites, especially those with “uniquely white” features? And if you’re “not racist”, Vijay, (which we need to start getting people to “prove” on this site when they say that, if only for laughs) why do you feel the compulsive need to describe “black” features in such a derogatory manner, and why is your premise pretty much “black people, everyone else thinks you’re ugly and you need to get over it and stay in humanity’s basement, lest the light of day reveal your shameful flat features”? I mean seriously… how are rational people supposed to interpret that? And, BTW, I’m sure those Indians out there who have “flat noses” and “jumbo lips” appreciate your rudeness and disdain for them under the paper-thin guise of candor. I’ve seen Sharukh Kahn… he’s notably duskier/blunter-featured than usual for a Bollywood actor, which makes his shilling of men’s lightening cream all the more reprehensible. What’s stranger is you’re acting like you’re proud of this development. Dude, he’s trying to sell it to you, and you need to tell him to go to hell!
If they’re doing this (inundating the runway and print ads with white models) for the sake of non-whites/non-blacks, Vijay, then why are Desi, Asian, and Arab models so rare on the catwalk — ESPECIALLY in light of their percentage of the prospective global market share/population (which, if that were the X factor, those ethnicities would constitute the vast majority of models)? They’re generally subjected to categorical exclusion, as well. Would most Indians/Asians/Arabs rather see Claudia Schiffer than a woman from their own groups? That’s a reeeally hard sell.
And Vijay, there are quite a few Americans (white and non-white) who do find the existence of the Student Unions you mentioned “bigoted and ignorant”. How it — and the “endangerment of the white race” are relevant to modeling, though, I’ll never know. Admit it, Vijay…. you went straight to Tangentland, therefore you have precious little credibility when you, upon returning from your Rant City vacation with souvenirs in tow, turn around and castigate Temple for ordering a ticket.
BTW, you smart Americans still have not answered my question. Why Whites are not allowed to form exclusive groups, yet non-whites are encouraged to do so? Racist is a nice word to denounce and humiliate white people when they are proud of their race.
Vijay, I hope you follow Temple3’s suggestion and learn some more history about British imperialism in India and its effects on the notions of status and beauty. For now, read this post; it’ll answer your question.
And BTW, nobody has forbidden those groups to form. Free speech and all that. The reason that those groups are looked down upon is that they teach supremacy of one race over another. That’s why they’re called “hate groups”. Not to say that it doesn’t go both ways; there are also minority hate groups, too.
But somehow, I have a feeling that you weren’t talking about the hate groups. You were probably referring to the “heritage clubs” in many schools, universities, and communities. Heritage clubs were founded because throughout the centuries, minorities were expected to submit to the customs and beliefs of their imperialist conquerers. These clubs are a way for people to learn about their history and ancestors, which was considered not as important as “white” history.
Angel H. - Thanks for the props, but I wasn’t thinking principally of the role of the British. I was thinking of a much, much earlier invasion.
Thank you Angel for pointing out the difference between heritage clubs, as you put it (I’m thiefing that, BTW, as I haven’t heard them described like that before), and supremecist clubs or groups.
Ancient Order of Hibernians, for example - Irish/Gaelic culture, dancing, good works, etc.
White is not an ethnicity, it’s an artificial construct. Therefore, no legitimacy in “white” clubs. End point.
Temple3:
“Angel H. - Thanks for the props, but I wasnt thinking principally of the role of the British. I was thinking of a much, much earlier invasion.”
Were you perhaps thinking of the Aryan invasion of the Dravidians who lived approximately 4500-5000 years ago in the Indus Valley?
Is that the invasion of which you speak?
Ann, ring the bell!
Dana has pretty much turned this fashion industry topic into “swiss cheese”, so, I would only add….
A black model does not appeal to Asia, Killinger said. There are also stories that there isnt necessarily much love between the Arabs and blacks.
The fashion industry is about identification and customers prefer to dream about a blonde, tall and slim girl, rather than someone who is black, Killinger said.]
That pretty much sums it up. Asian countries like China and India alone have a combined population of 2.5 billion (approx). Now that is huge. And I havent included the other Asian countries and the mid-east. The American population is a paltry 300 million. China and India are the next superpowers.
The fashion industry simply cannot afford to neglect Asia and the mid-east. So whether Americans like it or not the fashion industry has to give preference to the likes and dislikes of Asians and mid-easterners. Its business after all. The Indians have an obsession with fair skin and we find chiseled features more attractive.”
The above comments are very telling. These comments tell me that there are approximately 2.5 billion people in Asia and the Indian Subcontinent that absolutely despise themselves racially. Add in the segment of the continental African population that Keith Richburg touched on in his book(Out of America:A Black Man Confronts Africa), and you have a nice round 3 billion living in denial.
If the fashion industry was truly interested in “appealing to asians”, the runways would be ruled by women like Gong Li and some of those “fair” fade cream wearing Bollywood actresses that Vijay Coomar loves so much.
Wow, the colonial masters really did a job on the indigenous populations of their former “colonies”. Genocide of the mind for real.
Everyone has beauty preferences. But,in the fashion industry there is a clearly defined distinction based on race. Beverly Johnson, Naomi Campbell and others have been saying that for years.
The above comments are very telling. These comments tell me that there are approximately 2.5 billion people in Asia and the Indian Subcontinent that absolutely despise themselves racially. Add in the segment of the continental African population that Keith Richburg touched on in his book(Out of America:A Black Man Confronts Africa), and you have a nice round 3 billion living in denial.
Sorry Americans, China and India are the next superpowers and the MNCs have no option but to give preference to our likes and dislikes. Most of the western countries have an ageing population and negative population growth below replacement level. The MNCs have no choice but to cater to our whims and fancies. Thats the way its going to be like in the future and Id advise you people to stop whining and getting on with the program. The Times of India and the Hindustan Times are two top selling English dailies in India. You have got to check out the matrimonial ads they carry. The ads explicitly mention the preference for a fair bride or groom. We are smart people and we know when we see something beautiful. The bitter truth is that flat noses, jumbo lips and nappy hair are not attractive. Well, thats what 5 billion Asians and mid-easterners think.
Vijay Coomar
New Delhi
Ps- Just because somebody prefers tea to coffee implies that he/she hates coffee? How stupid is that?!?! hahahaha
Oh Vijay, Vijay, you must be part of the modeling world, because you are unapologetically racist…
Did it ever occur to you that “preference” when you’re talking about social beauty standards is something that is learned? (not my own opinion alone, but that of psychologists and child development professionals, etc.)
In other words, if a group of people has been told for centuries that coffee is BAD for you, and is something only poor people drink, and will never get you ahead socially, and is just generally undesirable… and that tea is the epitome of what a good caffeinated beverage should be, would it be surprising if that group of people preferred tea over coffee?
Even if someone TRIED coffee, and secretely liked it, they would be under social pressure to hide, minimize, or justify their coffee-tasting, and they’d be unlikely to support true societal change that both coffee and tea have the same standing in beverage society.
Until someone with enough distance might say, hey, there are a million ways to prepare and enjoy BOTH beverages, they can both have the same levels of caffeine, there is no one COFFEE or TEA standard but thinking makes it so….
And then, maybe, coffee is less marginalized, and tea loses some of its social cache.
Gee, I’m thinking those tea producers would get in a tizzy about that and try to stop it from happening.
And could I be ANY more obvious in this analogy?
Vijay… why do you still refuse to propose an explanation for the serious lack of Asian, Indian, and Middle Eastern models? Seriously, it was like the last post I addressed entirely to you never even happened. And you know that East Asians, for the most part, HAVE “flat noses”, right? Okay, and if you don’t hate black people, Vijay… then name one good thing about us. If you don’t hate blacks, name a way in which YOU, “Vijay Coomar from New Delhi”, think that the world would suffer if we all died tomorrow, every last “jumbo-lipped, nappy-haired, flat-nosed” one of us… and no, you can’t say “disposing of all of the bodies would be a b****.”
And why do you continue to be SO rude? Like, “Saturday morning cartoon villain who pushes old ladies down flights of stairs and kicks puppies” rude? Did you have a bad month, or something? I mean, how about a modicum of decorum? Is that too much to expect from a presumably grown man? Even though this is the Internet, you’re speaking to real people who deserve real respect and not unwarranted condescension, disdain, and free refills from the boundless well of pettiness-fortified immaturity that you evidently draw from. This has to be “Cyber Vijay”, or something, because I know good and well you probably don’t go out into the real world acting like Voldemort.
Sorry Americans, China and India are the next superpowers and the MNCs have no option but to give preference to our likes and dislikes.
So, those of us who are both white and American will have to suffer the misfortune of being favored as models, because Chinese and Indians are beating us out as superpowers, and don’t want to put up with models who look like Gong Li or Jaya Bachchan? Um, OK. Whatever.
The bitter truth is
There’s a single, inherent, unchangeable “bitter truth” about aesthetic preferences?
Just because somebody prefers tea to coffee implies that he/she hates coffee?
Well, if you keep talking about how inherently, unchangeably ugly coffee is, I’m likely to infer that you have an aversion to coffee.
And why do you continue to be SO rude?
Simple: His Black wife dumped him and his Asian girlfriend left him.
“Before all you Americans start squealing racist, let me tell you that I am a colored man and I dont hate anybody.”
Yes you do.
Yourself.
“The white race is the only race which has people with blue, green, hazel, brown eyes and the only race which has people with blonde, auburn and brown hair.”
A lie.
With all the rape-mixing that has ocurred in the last 500 years, many dark races are watered down with European blood. The “white race” is not the only race that has green-, blue eyes, light skin. Guess you have not taken a gander at the many hues black Americans come in, eh?
But of course you are an expert on black people, eh?
“The fashion industry simply cannot afford to neglect Asia and the mid-east. So whether Americans like it or not the fashion industry has to give preference to the likes and dislikes of Asians and mid-easterners. Its business after all. The Indians have an obsession with fair skin and we find chiseled features more attractive.”
The fashion industry should acknowledge ALL the various forms of beauty in the human race—-black, white, yellow, brown, red. And yes, the fashion industry is a business. But, if you think that the few “light-bright-and-damned-near-white” skin palattes of your race represent ALL Desis/Punjabis/Dalits etc. then man, you are a strong candidate for an appointment for a powerful, very long ECT session.
“The Indians have an obsession with fair skin and we find chiseled features more attractive.”
Preference (translation= prejudice) is one thing. Trying to find 300 million “fair-skinned, chiselded features” among your own dark-skinned, flat nosed people is beyond looking for a needle in the haystack.
Good luck on you on finding those millions and millions of “fair-skinned, chiseled” features in your country.
“But you Americans who proudly claim to be against all kinds of racism and bigotry wont let White people have their unions.”
White people already have their own “unions”:
-400 years of when Affirmative Action was white; and still is;
-first hired many times over non-whites especially in the corporate world, no matter if the non-white is more competent for the job;
-given the benefit of a doubt more often, by self-haters such as yourself, over a potentially more qualified black person;
-owners of 99.9% of the worlds global corporations (you remember Bhopal do you, Vijay?); owners of 99.9% of the world’s wealth, due to slave-wage “Shirtwaist Factory” labor condidtions.
Oh, I could go on and on, but, such knowledge would obviously be wasted on you.
“Sorry Americans, China and India are the next superpowers and the MNCs have no option but to give preference to our likes and dislikes.”
Your comment does not surprise me. There are many like you who wish to take over the world and out-white the white man.
New and more terrifying monsters/masters of the world, eh?
Ancient Rome in all its brutality and decadence did not last.
Nazi Germany in all of its vicious racist hatred did not last.
Next year’s/century’s “masters” will not last either.
Your delusions of grandeur of world mastery/domination will bite the dust.
The world THIS TIME, IN THIS DAY AND AGE AND CENTURY will not stand by for anymore genocide/segregation/Holocaust-creating self-haters such as yourself.
And I agree with Victor.
Massa has done an excellent job on the minds of many so-called non-whites who worship “whiteness”.
Who needs racist whites/Europeans to hate non-whites, when non-whites (such as you, Vijay) do a good job of self-hatred on yourself, eh?
Who needs racist/white supremacists to spread their venom when poor demented lost souls such as yourself do it for them, and do a better job?
White racist/supremacy HAS WON.
In YOUR self-hating mind.
Your sad, pathetic display of psychotic self-hatred speaks volumes.
White supremacy has spread like a poison Sarin gas cloud all around the world————and has infected you.
And you have embraced it in ways that would shame your ancient ancestors.
And white supremacy-worship venom comes in many paint shades, as you certainly show in your virulent self-hatred.
Oh, and one more thing, self-hater.
“Infact, the biggest Bollywood star Shah Rukh Khan, is the brand ambassador for a skin whitening cream called Fair & Lovely and it sells like hot cakes here.”
The majority of the people in India/China are not “white” no matter how much “Skin Brightener-Skin So White-Oh, Please, Please, Pretty-Please Make my Dark-Skin White” creams you use.
Stop being ashamed of your dark-skin.
And as for your hatred of black people.
Does not surprise me either.
You would rather believe lies/myths/racist stereotypes against black Americans rather than to learn the truth about black Americans.
What else can be expected from a human such as yourself whose country mistreats people like the Dalits?
“The ads explicitly mention the preference for a fair bride or groom.
Well, thats what 5 billion Asians and mid-easterners think.”
Wow.
Sick.
Thanks for letting me know how many self-haters there are in the world.
It’s good to know the numbers.
Know…thy…enemy.
And you have definately met your enemy………..yourself…….and those who think like you, are their own worst enemy.
Ciao!
Hell, this diabolical negro would welcome an influx of models that look like (the ageless) Gong Li, Haifa Wehbe, or Aishwarya Rai & Tanushree Dutta with open arms… but I’m not a power-broker in the fashion industry, and the people who are obviously see things differently.
Angel… prepare to hear from his lawyer!!! The vein on Vijay’s head throbs at the very suggestion that he would ever *gasp* engage in any intimate associations with a black… you’ve sullied his sterling reputation, and you must (literally) pay! Trust, Kerry Washington is crying into her pillow nightly because Vijay Coomar in New Delhi will have none of her. I know I am… *sniff* I can’t believe I’m missing out on that kind of arrogance and elitism… damn this flat nose!!!
Dana:
You do know that Vijay is not trying to have a dialogue. The tactics here are about as childish as can be, but they are authentically his own. At least he was kind enough to use his full name.
Temple: Somehow, I doubt that was his real name… and yeah, I know he’s not trying to have a real dialogue, or else he would’ve come harder than “You sho’ is ugly!” I could’ve argued his point better than he did, and without all of the irrelevant, awkwardly-infused White Nationalist talking points.
You go, Ann! Give him a taste of his own medicine. Too bad the self-hating bigot wouldn’t have any of it. He’s sick and in need of therapy. Anyone who self-hates ones own race, worship whiteness and putting down blacks is mentally unstable.
Stephanie B.
First of all, Id politely request all you people to stop calling me a racist or a self-hater. I have mentioned it n number of times that I dont hate people of color. Its my observation that whenever somebody says something contrary to the popular beliefs, people obsessed with political correctness immediately start squealing RACIST RACIST and then go into massive epileptic seizure. I reiterate- I dont hate anybody, myself included.
[Lyonside on October 20th, 2007 3:33 pm
..Did it ever occur to you that preference when youre talking about social beauty standards is something that is learned? (not my own opinion alone, but that of psychologists and child development professionals, etc.)]
Lyonside, I have a mind of my own and I use it too. I dont blindly believe what the TV shows or what the newspapers/magazines say. Some things are innate while some are acquired or learned after birth. You cannot teach a person what to like or dislike. No teacher in school and no professor in the university taught me that white models are better looking than black models. I simply find white models more attractive. Its purely instinctual. Even if all the people in the world said that broad noses and bloated lips are sexy I would not believe them because my gut would tell me otherwise.
Profit is the sole motive of all businesses. They cannot disregard the preferences of the majority. They know very well that Asians and Mid-Easterners(5 billion approx) prefer white models and thats why corporations will continue to hire white models for selling their products. If all you white people really want to change things then you should try to increase your population. All the western countries have an ageing population and negative population growth below replacement level. For the MNCs you are insignificant. The white race is headed towards extinction and it really amazes me that while all you white folks are busy saving the endangered animals and fighting for colored people you dont even care to think about your own race! Now thats what I call self-hate. hahaha!
[Ann on October 20th, 2007 11:28 pm
.. With all the rape-mixing that has ocurred in the last 500 years, many dark races are watered down with European blood. The white race is not the only race that has green-, blue eyes, light skin. Guess you have not taken a gander at the many hues black Americans come in, eh?]
Ann, what the hell is rape-mixing? You have clearly mentioned yourself that dark races got their blue, green eyes and light skin from European blood. Thanks Ann, for further strengthening my argument that initially white race was the only race to have blue/green eyes, blonde/red hair and light pink skin.
Vijay Coomar
New Delhi
Ps- Latetia Casta will always be more beautiful than Naomi Campbell. We Indians love Aishwarya Rai cuz shes really pretty and looks European rather than African.
“If all you white people really want to change things then you should try to increase your population. All the western countries have an ageing population and negative population growth below replacement level. For the MNCs you are insignificant. The white race is headed towards extinction and it really amazes me that while all you white folks are busy saving the endangered animals and fighting for colored people you dont even care to think about your own race! Now thats what I call self-hate. hahaha!”
See, “14/88″ rants like this are why I doubt he’s actually Desi…normal white Americans/Europeans don’t whine this fanatically (and irrelevantly) about the “death of the white race”, so I seriously doubt normal Desis in India have this at the top of their “Things to Vociferously Decry” list. Furthermore, if he was an DBD (Desh born Desi), why would he be so passionately concerned about the inherent racism of Native American student unions? That seems like a rather obscure topic, and it would be the equivalent of me (a non-Indian who’s never set a reprehensible black foot in India in my life and is, as a result, mostly ignorant of Indian ethnic relations) railing on (and on and on) about how unfair “positive discrimination”/AA for “Backwards Castes” is.
Vijay also refuses to name one thing he likes about black people/why he doesn’t hate black people given our marked aesthetic inferiority
, or the reason that models are mostly white instead of Asian, Desi, and/or Middle Eastern. *yawn* Also notice that he continues to categorically ignore my posts. Don’t worry, Vijay, it’s not contagious — if you address my arguments, I promise you won’t wake up African tomorrow morning.
P.S. Aish doesn’t look European (aside from her eyes) … she looks Indian… and “looking Indian”, in and of itself, is a good thing. Indian women have a look all their own that aids them in repeatedly winning international beauty contests, where they are judged alongside the most Nordic of women — they don’t need to look European to be attractive, and neither does anyone else. The powers that be in the fashion world should recognize Indian beauty (and Asian, Latina, Arab and African beauty), and right now, they don’t… and I, for one, think that’s hella lame.
You cannot teach a person what to like or dislike.
This is a weird position, since all the evidence is that people are taught what to like and dislike all the time; surely that’s why people in different parts of the world, just going from their gut and not having to think about it, like different levels of spiciness in their food.
I simply find white models more attractive. Its purely instinctual. Even if all the people in the world said that broad noses and bloated lips are sexy I would not believe them because my gut would tell me otherwise.
Ah, it’s your own immediate aesthetic preferences that are the measure of what’s automatic and instinctual. My gut tells me that “broad noses and bloated lips” are often attractive and sexy. So, your preferences are instinctual, but mine are learned?
If all you white people really want to change things
I think the majority of us in this thread probably aren’t white, but since I’m one of the ones who is, I’ll respond to this. You’re saying that this instinctual preference for fair skin and Caucasian features only applies to Asian and Middle Eastern people? We white people are born to different preferences (and somehow went through generations of sexual selection to get features that we alone, of all the world, don’t find especially attractive)? Enough that the only way black people can be found attractive is if we white people outbreed everyone else?
The thing is, white though I am, half my ancestors lived side by side with people who are now considered Middle Easterners. Common sense tells me there must have been some mixing that went on, during those centuries, between my ancestors and theirs. So how come I didn’t inherit this “Middle Eastern people are destined to always prefer white people” gene?
Dana:
Vijay: If you don’t want to be called a racist, then STOP SAYING RACIST SHIT!
Ann, what the hell is rape-mixing?
Please tell me you’re not that dumb.
I’m talking to… a brick wall… (quick, name that B&W movie)
> Some things are innate while some are acquired or learned after birth.
Yup. Beauty standards such as those discussed in the article and supported by you are NOT innate.
Evolutionary biologists generally agree that universal beauty standards are those that give nonverbal clues to general health and well being, which often hint that the individual would produce healthy offspring (The ultimate point of attractiveness in higher mammals)…
These things are:
1. Facial and body SYMMETRY. This makes sense for our ancestors to notice, since some genetic disorders have physical signs. Also, having all your limbs, digits, ears, eyes, and so on in a subsistance/hunter-gatherer society means that an individual is likely to be 1) lucky in hunting, fighting, and life in general 2) smart/lucky enough to avoid big mishaps, 3) possibly high ranking enough/has enough family and social support structures to avoid being put into the worst danger.
2. Gender-specific traits that are tied to high estrogen/testosterone levels, such as the shoulder/waist/hip ratio (which the current types of runway models are woefully lacking). For women, the waist/hip ratio is tied to both physical fitness, genetics, and estrogen level. It can also hint at previous successful childbirth experience. For men, the shoulder/waist ratio is also a product of physical fitness, genetics, and testosterone/androgen levels.
3. Other secondary characteristics - glossy/healthy hair, regardless of texture = general good health and nutrition. Same for nail length, color, and uniformity. Same for skin texture, sheen, etc.
Bottom line: these things are UNIVERSAL FOR ALL REGIONS OF THE EARTH. There are individual societies where standards are taken to extremes - we’re human beings, not automatons, and we tend to make up our own rules and fall in and out of “fashion” ( and I don’t mean in the modern sense).
Back in the pre-industrialized European era where fat people were rare and usually wealthier and healthier than the average Johann, round models, especially for women, were IDEALIZED. Look even at Greek and Roman statues - they have padding in their midsections even as their muscles are emphasized. The proportions of a David or Venus de Milo would never make it as a runway model.
Different societies have emphasized different features for different reasons. Many tribal cultures have and do practice body modification as an emblem of status and, yes, beauty. Wide lips are bad? Tell that to the Amazon indigenous.
>You cannot teach a person what to like or dislike.
Bull - yes you can.
>No teacher in school and no professor in the university taught me that white models are better looking than black models.
Yes, because those preferences are shaped in CHILDHOOD. By OMMISSION. By EXAMPLE. Verbal and nonverbal communication. Or do you think you entered university as a tabula rasa?
>Profit is the sole motive of all businesses.
We agree. For once. I fear this will not happen again.
>The white race is headed towards extinction
Are you SURE you’re not from Stormfront?
>your own race!
What race would that be, “Vijay?” I’m of Western European and Western African background, in various combinations depending on which relative you’re talking about. My mother is entirely Western European. My father is African-American and Bermudan. My spouse is PuertoRican (which means European, African, and Native). My child is all of the above.
We are one species - human - and if we are heading towards extinction, it’s because of our environmental decisions and consequences.
You, sir, are of no consequence.
BTW: Red hair is a BROWN HAIR MUTATION.
Pale skin has been traced to the migration of humans into northern latitudes as the glacial ice receded, and the need for Vitamin D production outweighed the risk of skin damage. Fairly recent, and being a useful genetic mutation, it likely popped up in the human genome multiple times.
Furthermore, Vijay, can we ask you “politely” to stop referring to millions of people, most of whom you’ve never laid eyes on before, as naturally, biologically, categorically ugly and implying that all “smart” people agree that they are? Your whole premise, not to mention the exceptionally boorish manner in which you state it, is impolite as hell, and everyone knows it. Dude, you’ve got a lot of nerve, and twice as much hypocrisy. Seriously, how did you expect people to respond to that?
Vijay’s Ideal Response
White posters:”Yeah, blacks are ugly… I’ll start having pure white children to preserve our most beautiful of races, stat!”
Black posters: “So, which kind of bag should I put over my head? Paper, plastic, burlap, or sackcloth? Can it be a designer bag?”
Classic troll tactic: Stroll in, say something mean/inflammatory, have others respond in kind, and then whine “Why are people being so mean to meeee?” as if he/she was trying to discuss his/her favorite Jane Austen novel over tea instead of claiming that every man, woman, and child in a racial group is hideous to everyone with the gift of sight.
“Ann, what the hell is rape-mixing? You have clearly mentioned yourself that dark races got their blue, green eyes and light skin from European blood. Thanks Ann, for further strengthening my argument that initially white race was the only race to have blue/green eyes, blonde/red hair and light pink skin.”
Wow.
Not only uneducated but dense.
Listen “white man”.
So-called preferences (prejudices) are learned. From mommy, dadddy, and society all around you.
If you really are a Desi, you would not show so much love and worship of whiteness.
The learned hatred of blackness is not innate. It is acquired from the indoctrination of constant in your face “White is right, white is better” lies. A weak-minded person (such as yourself) has obviously succumbed to the slavish, servile worship of whiteness, since you have allowed it to consume you like a festering plague.
And yes rape-mixing changed the outer skin color of dark-skinned people.(Thank you black-latina-native-asian “women haters” of slavery/colonial/imperialism/segregation eras Europeans for all the rape-mixing that changed the hues/phenotypes/ancestry of non-white dark-skinned races all over the world).
Just because white people have recessive genes (blue/green/grey eyes; pale skin; red hair) does not make them better than non-white people. It never has, and it never will.(Now, don’t start whining and snotting and crying. Read up on your Gregor Mendel: black color (dominant), white color (recessive). And don’t blow a gasket showing your lack of understanding of genetics. I am speaking of outer appearances (skin color) only.
And you show your utter ignorance of genetic diversity.
“Black” blood [African]; “White” blood [European]; “Yellow” blood [Asian], etc., NEVER BECOMES EXTINCT. It merely gets shuffled around in your genetic/heritage lineage. It never goes away.
Therefore, no race is ever truly “bred out” of existence.
Now, addled-brain human stupidity and arrogance—–my, oh my, it would be nice if that could be eradicated. But, unfortunately the human race is looking at, oh, say——–7,000,000 years before even a dent can be made into that dream.
“I simply find white models more attractive. Its purely instinctual. Even if all the people in the world said that broad noses and bloated lips are sexy I would not believe them because my gut would tell me otherwise.”
Right.
Which is why the so-called “bee sting” lips (translation: black women’s lips) are so popular among models, movie stars, and many average/non-famous non-black women.
You’ve been taught.
Taught.
Carefully taught, to bow dow and worship “whiteness”, and to hate, vilify and disparage “blackness”. There is nothing “instinctual” about praising one skin color over another. Before the coming of the Europeans, ALL dark-skinned people loved themselves. LOVED THEMSELVES. Read that, Vijay? Before the coming degradation of European “projection” of THEIR fear and confusion of the DIFFERENT cultures, hues, traditions, etc. against all the various skin colors they encountered, dark-skinned people were not brain-washed to hate themselves. But, after five centuries of white supremacist, racist ridicule and mockery of the natural born dark beauty of non-whites many non-whites (such as yourself, white man…oh, sorry, ..excuse me…such as yourself, Desi) has caused them to experience displaced anger of the destroyer/colonizer/oppressor and therefore, many (such as you) have turned their anger and rage, inward onto THEMSELVES, and therefore, suffer from the horrible psychological condition known as “self-hatred”. That is what is taught:
-via the white/Western-oriented/dominated/controlled MEDIA
It takes a strong person to not succumb to Massa’s non-stop onslaught of the deluge of whiteness. But, it can be done. Except in your case, the damage has been done.
But, Vijay, it’s okay to leave the plantation, alright.
Come on off the chain-gang of self-hatred. Come on into the light of reality.
“Now, addled-brain human stupidity and arrogancemy, oh my, it would be nice if that could be eradicated. But, unfortunately the human race is looking at, oh, say7,000,000 years before even a dent can be made into that dream.”
That statement says it all! So true.
“Which is why the so-called bee sting lips (translation: black womens lips) are so popular among models, movie stars, and many average/non-famous non-black women.”
Yep. And, these same models, movie stars, and “girls next door” type of women that covet “store-bought ethnicity” are worshipped as the epitome of femininity, and beauty by the fashion industry and “mainstream” society.
At the same time,the fashion industry and “mainstream society” refuses to acknowledge the natural beauty that they so often attempt to duplicate.
Consider the mentally skewed, ironic arrogance of that.
I doubt that Vijay Coomar is actually Indian. But, I don’t doubt that there are MANY people that share the racist views
that he has posted here.
So, to Vijay Coomar and his 2.5 billion + supporters….
Full lips, flat noses, the various shades of darkness in complexion, and every naturally coiled hair on the head of a black woman(model or not, acknowledged by society or not)is recognized and loved.
I recognize and love all of it!
Crying and whining has never changed anything. I know you people are very much angry and frustrated because white models are more beautiful than colored models. Thats the way it is and thats the way its going to be in the future. Get used to it.
There are a number of African students who come here to study in the universities. 90% of them are caught trafficking drugs and the rest somehow manage to escape. Also, these so called students from Africa have ZERO luck with the Indian girls. No Indian girl will go out with an African because they find them extremely repulsive. You cannot force us to like what we find abominable. Period.
Letss talk about crime. I hope all of you are aware of the fact that though the so called african-americans are a minority in the US but they form a majority of the prison population. Why? I know you will come up with some stupid answer like - thats because whitey has been always putting them down. Hahaha. Look what has become of Zimbabwe and Haiti. Everything was fine there till the white people were in charge but the moment the africans took over both the countries have turned into a shithole. Oh, I forgot to mention south africa. Be honest and tell me, arent the blacks in America better off than the blacks in africa?
You people are always talking about the white supremacists. What about the black supremacists? Why dont you oppose them? You people are hypocrites and have double standards.
Vijay Coomar
New Delhi
Ps- I am an Indian guy. But you can keep believing that I am a white man. hahahaa
Vijay, You’re banned. I can’t take your white supremacist attitudes any longer.
Good job. I’d had about enough of his screaming “Fire!!” in this crowded tavern as I tried to enjoy my greasy burger, fries and beer. I’m all for “free speech” but idiots have to pay.
Aw, come on, guys… he said he wasn’t racist… he just happens to believe that blacks are “abominable”, “not attractive”, criminals, and incapable of running their own nations anywhere besides into the ground — in other words, Vijay thinks we’re untermenschen, kulturzerstrer. What could possibly be racist about that? It’s slander, I tell you! Furthermore, you’re curtailing his free speech, you big meanies! I mean, you’ve banned him from your site, which is exactly like the government arresting him for expressing his beliefs, if you think about it — at 4:20, anyway. Free Vijay! No justice, no peace!!! *grabs fry from Temple’s plate when he’s not looking*
I just keep picturing Nellie Forbush’s “This is born in me,” when she freaks over Emile’s children that he had with his late Tonkinese wife.
i just recently came across this post and i am really surpised to see that ppl left Vijay Coomar from New Delhi (yea right-*rolling eyes in head*)
very long comments to his idiotic comments. i could clearly see from his first comment that he was clearly here to cause controversy and to get a rise out of ppl. ppl like Vijay clearly needs no attention like that because they cause intelligent ppl like ourselves to waste our precise time on their stupid parade of dumbness.
glad to see that it has ended.