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Aug
22
Black Male Gaze Causes Self-Esteem Issues.
Filed Under Black/African American Issues, Gender and Sexism, Pop Culture, Race and Racism, Serious Questions by Sewere
(Quick Note: Apologies for my absence from guest blogging folks, the past month - in which I quit my job, slept through my vacation and started school - has been a bit crazy. But I’m back 
)
Inspired by a previous post at Racialicous (Hat-tip to Carmen) I caught this postcard over at Postsecret - a medium I consider an amazing blog and great resource to provide (unfortunately, the blog doesn’t archive posts for more than a week).
A couple of months ago, Kathy Klinger wrote an article in the Washington City Paper in which she claimed the sexism of certain black men made her racist. Latoya Peterson (Special Correspondent at Racialicious) wrote up an excellent post dissecting the inherent racism without ignoring the sexism Klinger experienced. Sometime later, I found this post card on the postcard on Postsecret. It seems the recent trend of racializing black male gaze has taken on a turn for the ridiculous.
What do you good folks think?
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87 Responses to “Black Male Gaze Causes Self-Esteem Issues.”
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i have a white female co-worker who would say things like this all the time…not so much in a self-conscious way, but more like a “man, i wish OTHER men would hit on me too” kind of way as a result of her having a lot more “junk in her trunk” than the *average* white woman, and sadly to say, far more than me (i blame my mother for my small bum; i guess i’ll never be a “true black woman” in the words of buffie the body). ANYWAY…i wonder how this type of post-card could be turned around to fit other stereotypes…like…i wonder if that asian-american guy is hitting on me just because i’m skinny and smart or that latino guy because i can make spicy food…sounds ridiculous doesn’t it?
i think of this post card in the same way. no one likes being objectified, but i think, the objectification is made all the worse by the object if he/she is not attracted to the observer cum commenter or if the person holds stereotypes of the group attracted to him/her that make the observer seem attractive/lacking potential as a mate.
LOL!
i’m not sure what this woman is so worried about.
Wendi’s comments miss part of the point.
The ass is probably the body part that is more racialized than any other. Whereas white men prefer small/flatter ones, non-white men prefer ones that are larger and protrude. Being white and having a body part that white men presumably detest can engender all sorts of derision which in turn can have a debilitating effect on self-esteem. So it isn’t about the objectifier as it is about the person being objectified and her ideas about black people and her own self-worth.
I’ve only talked to two white women about this, but one of them left a job she’d had because she was teased so mercilessly about her backside.
[...] tip to Sewere. Check out his post on Rachel’s Tavern about [...]
I thought it was mostly Latino Male Gaze which caused these self-esteem issues. Not that the ethnicity matters all that much, but I’d like to “give credit where credit is due.”
From my safe male space, I see this as a security issue. Our society objectifies women and creates implicit and explicit permission for all manner of violations. Education is part of the process, but honestly, it takes too long and it is a recurring generational challenge. It’s better to have stronger laws and the capacity to protect yourself in the majority of situations.
None of us are ever permanently “safe” but some of us are safer than others by virtue of our knowledge, training, and composure. Ultimately, our collective safety relies on the communities in which we live and travel - and on our capacity to use everything in our toolkit to evade or eliminate threats.
Ultimately, both writers agree that the REAL ISSUE is not the physical location of the interaction - it is the manner, approach and person which are objectionable. After all, if two “matched” people could never talk to one another on the street, we’d no longer have a civil society. The tragedy, however, is that we do not live in a civil society - and so those electric, magical moments between “matched pairs” seldom happen on our streets.
Well - she’s also got body image issues herself / has internalized sexism, and she’s being sexist / racist at Black women, too … in addition to everything else.
My question is: is she only worried that her ass might actually be fat, or is she hoping these guys also want her for her mind?
I can remember one black guy - and only one, actually - who left me with the uneasy feeling that he was flirting with me because I was white, and expected me to flirt back because he was black. But the “fat ass” worry about black men flirting in general never occurred to me.
Just one point…do we know the commenter is white (or not black)?
When I first saw this in the queue, I thought it was a black woman, but then again, I thought, “Would a black woman invoke Sir-Mix-Alot?”
Haha, Rachel, re: Sir Mix-A-Lot.
This caught my attention because I have heard my mother (she’s white) say something similar. She started gaining weight a few years ago after starting a medication. She has struggled to lose it over the years. She is overweight but not obese, she wouldn’t really stick out as overly heavy in our society. Yet, she wishes for her former body shape.
She told me she knew she was getting a big butt when she started getting more attention from black males.
To her, random black males flirting with her is a measure, like a bathroom scale, of what her body looks like to strangers.
The implication here, of course, is that she’s worried she’s LESS attractive to white men (and other standardized metrics of beauty) now that black men are paying attention to her.
R,
I would also add, if this is indeed a white woman, the insinuation would also be that black men have poor taste, low standards, or no standards.
Or: she’s worried about seeming less fashionable in the eyes of (white) women. It seems to me women are more worried about everyone being skinny than men of any color are worried about our being skinny!
Poor taste, I’m not sure. The skinny ideal is primarily a white & elite thing, it seems to me. I’ve heard a lot of men, mostly of color but some white ones too, say they found ultra-skinniness unattractive. I don’t know that they think of this as having low standards … ?
I think the only implication we can reliably get from this is that she feels that there is a good chance that she is fat if black men find her attractive. To her, the black man finding her attractive is the indicator of her possible fattness. She is going with the notion that many black men find big butts attractive, an idea perpetuated and celebrated by the media.
I don’t think she is necessarily making a negative statement about blacks and their having bad taste, low or no standards…unless you are equating finding bigger women attractive with having poor taste. She does not imply that she holds this belief in her postcard.
(For example, I don’t like the color orange, but I wouldn’t say that people who do have no standards and poor taste, just different taste than my own. It is possible she has the same mentailty here about big butts.)
Nor does she speak to being less attractive to white men now that black men also like her.
I just get from it that she herself does not wish to be fat. She doesn’t say that if others like “fat asses” then they have no taste, or that she is tainted to white men since black men like her. She just says that she worries about having a “fat ass” herself.
She also doesn’t mention whether or not she likes black men or attention from them on any level or not. Nor does she state her own race. So, there’s only so much one can reliably read into this without making assumptions.
P.S. Some white men also like bigger butts (as there are black men who aren’t into big butts), so let’s not fall into the generalization trap! :-)
This is sadly funny to me - only because of all the discomfort I have under the uninvited/sexualized gaze of strangers, my discomfort is less under the ‘black male gaze’, because I’ve never been really hassled by a black man, unlike my experience with white men (I’m half black/half white).
I read this as written by a white woman who is horrified at being seen as sexually attractive by black men because she… I dunno: dislikes black men/thinks black women aren’t attractive (and all have fat asses?). Either way it gives me a bad feeling. For a lot of reasons.
I would also add, if this is indeed a white woman
You know that’s the first thing that occurred to me when I first saw the postcard. That it was a white woman… only because white women are the only one’s I’ve heard make such statements. But that’s just my small sample size.
[...] this post of Sewere’s, at Rachel’s Tavern ,where he has a conversation going about the Black Male Gaze causing self-esteem issues, referencing a Post Secret confession. I know there was a study done not too long ago that said [...]
White men desire big butts as much as men of other races. The women fashions of the 19th century were clearly inspired by the hottentot venus, if not by the shpes of the mammies at home.
This cracks me up in so many ways but it reminds me of a conversation I was in recently on one of my predominately black yahoogroups. Oddly, the topic was Rachel Ray of the Food Network. Of all of the women on the Food channel, the guys all started talking about loving Rachel Ray and how “hot” she was. I started laughing because I also browse food blogs/message boards occasionally and men, who I am assuming are white, trash Rachel to the high heavens about her weight and appearance. I pointed out to the group that their admiration of her was quite different from the men on the food blogs who, by contrast, have wet dreams about Giada de Laurentis on the same network.
Finally one of them brought up her “shape,” body and butt and I howled because I knew that her butt was the main attraction. I want to know if Rachel Ray has any clue that black men are drooling over more than her 30 Minute meals?
About a year or so ago, a white woman was suing her doctor because he told her that she needed to lose weight because if her husband died or left, no one else would want her. While I thought that was rude, I couldn’t understand why she thought she could sue … until she also said he told her that no one else would want her except maybe a black man because they like fat women … I laughed and I still don’t know if it merited a law suit but black men and “fat” white women do seem to be the expectation …
Jennifer said,
True but this woman isn’t racializing white men’s attractions to big behinds, it is playing on stereotypes of black male sexual interests/attractions.
Can you tease this sentence out a bit, it’s the first time I’ve heard it and I haven’t seen any sort of supporting evidence outside of general conversations.
I just thought of another way this statement plays on stereotypes interracial sexual interest. I’m trying hard to imagine black women or any woman who has lived within and can relate to African-American/Black communities, coming up with a statement like this…. but for some reason I can’t.
I’ve been looking for Lester in all the wrong places…he’s over here talking about butts!!
I think jennifer is referring to the bustle. I have no idea if it was inspired by the Hottentot Venus, but it was a popular fashion a long time ago.
Although I don’t think many white men are currently into big round behinds, and when they are their definition of a big behind is usually a little different from the black men I know. But then again I know Black men who have a definition of attractiveness that is very similar to the stereotypical white male definition of attractiveness.
Big butts are not the same as fat, wide, flat butts. At some point, that distinction should be made.
She’s obviously making herself the “victim” here.
I’m sure there are *countless* women (Black/Latina/otherwise), who’ve felt stared at or objectified by what they’ve got back there. However, we’ve developed thick skins or ways of diverting or ignoring inappropriate or embarrassing attention.
She needs to grow up. Either that or she secretly likes it.
Temple3 said, “Big butts are not the same as fat, wide, flat butts.”
Yeah, and I think many whites don’t realize that either.
I’m a white woman and I would say that it was written by a white woman. A snotty, eyes rolling white woman. It’s not just the words, it’s the hand writing, the exclamation and capitalization of FAT ASS!!!!
And yes, there is all the implicated nasty associations with the word FAT as it related to desirability and race to me as well.
How is this for a mean sterotype.
Fat white women cannot get very many white men becuase white men are not attracted to them so they throw themselves at black men in the hopes they can get and attract a man who will like them. Black men like this arrangement becuase they know they will get a women who will do anything for them because they are so desparate for a man and they can treat the fat white women any way they want to.
I actually know several people who believe this sterotype. Of course my survey was limited to about four different black women. Not actually a high number. I am wondering how many other people believe even a little bit in what I just stated.
The reason this strikes such a nerve with me is that in my case, its at least partially true that I do like curvier women. But it’s not like I go around with a tape measure passing judgements on the women I meet, so it still seems like an unfair stereotype.
When I first saw this in the queue, I thought it was a black woman, but then again, I thought, Would a black woman invoke Sir-Mix-Alot?
I was under the impression—and this is a little off-topic—that the blogger designed the illustrations on Post Secret.
Speaking of big butts getting the black man’s attention. Guess who will be featured in an upcoming issue of King Magazine.
http://www.bossip.com/4604/still-denying-the-fake-booty/
Amanda, that is a good point, and it would help us get to the bottom of the is it a white woman question. I have no idea, who does that? Sewere, can you look into that? Did the person who had the secret put it on that card?
Amanda,
Folks send their postcards in and the blogger scans and posts them on his blog every week. Here are the specific instructions:
Create your 4-by-6-inch postcards out of any mailable material. If you want to share two or more secrets, use multiple postcards. Put your complete secret and image on one side of the postcard.
I think Black men suffer from sexism and racism as well. Being from California and going to a HBCU, I was always asked why do white women find California Black guys so attractive.
More importantly, Black men are always Mandingoized by non-black women.
Okay, that clarifies things. I do think, either way, that the secret-keeper is white. I would find it odd to hear a black woman phrase it that way. There’s an Othering in the syntax, though it’s hard, as usual, to be hyper-specific about how.
Why is everyone here pretending to be so PC here? Black dudes do pay far more attention to women who have fat asses. Her comment is harmless.
Amanda:
I think that it’s as simple as black women tend not to refer to Black men as “Black men.” Generally speaking, to do so reveals a bit of alienation because it replaces a simpler appellation (”men”) or the more commonplace (”Brothas”/Brothers/etc.).
In four decades (nearly), I’ve never heard a black woman refer to her anatomy that way…there is almost always more love involved - and it’s never so simple. “Fat ass” doesn’t begin to describe the big women I know - and they wouldn’t begin (or end) to describe themselves that way.
I have no doubt in my mind that a “white” woman or even “white” man put this item together. I believe one of the posters up top, however, was correct in many respects in identifying the many things this postcard DOES NOT say. In any event, thanks for sharing.
Not even a little bit. No one needs to go outside her race to be treated badly. Besides, what I hear from other white women who think they have big butts isn’t that no white man ever makes advances to them; it’s that there’s some sort of status/homosocial thing where men are more willing to be public about their interest in skinnier women.
Fake? I hope not.
We’re specifically supposed to like Black guys from California? Oregon won’t do?
Hearing that always strikes a nerve with me, because how can I be sure it wasn’t at least partly true of my younger self? Who you’re attracted to comes from the same pre-conscious place as who you’re prejudiced against. All I can say is I don’t think that kind of thing was ever the only reason I liked someone.
“still-denying-the-fake-booty”
I knew that had to be about Kim Kardashian! I checked the comments to see if anyone would take issue with Kardashian being labeled a “white girl,” since she’s Middle Eastern, but after reading four out of the five comments relentlessly bashing black women in general, I decided it wasn’t worth it to me.
“More importantly, Black men are always Mandingoized by non-black women.”
LOL, really? Always?
Articles like the one in question always depict black men as uncivilized, disrepectful animals out to “deflower the virtous white woman”.
According to the woman in the article, even “other races of men” harass her, BUT,they are not pervasive.
Yeah, like the “other races of men” just stood around on the sidewalks of her old DC neighborhood and said to her as she passed….”Hey Sugar, want to get together later and play a game of Scattergories???”
Sure they did.
I think that this woman is over doing the resentment reaction. There’s much more going on with her,it seems. It was said best in an earlier post.
“Who you’re attracted to comes from the same pre-conscious place as who you’re prejudiced against.”
White women are very interested in Black men. No more and no less than any other group of women from any other ethic background.
Mandingoized? Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what that means.
Never mind. Please ignore my last post.
Ron and Victor,
I think you are both exaggeratng the interest white women have in black men. Most white women won’t date or have serious relationships with black men.
I also think it is unfair to say white women “always” Mandingoize black men. Always is way too strong. Maybe some do this, but many do not. In fact, I think the trend of being obsessed with black men’s genitalia is much more common among white men and increasingly black men, who buy into racial stereotypes about themselves.
Rachel,
What I was saying in my post is that when it comes to INTEREST in black men; white women have no more or no less than any other woman. Maybe the word “very” seems strong to describe the level of “interest”, but I think that it is an appropriate term.
I was attempting to place emphasis on curiosity, attraction, etc. I wasn’t trying to imply anything related to inter-racial dating or marriage.
In terms of the article, the woman in DC seems to be conflicted about a lot of things, not just racism.
It is highly possible for a racist to be “interested” in the people that they are prejudiced against. That is an historical fact.
That’s why I identified the statement from the earlier post as well stated because I feel that racism and attraction(or interest for the sake of discussion) does come from the same place.
As for the Locker Room stories about the black man’s genitalia; that’s not implied or stated anywhere in my post. And it never will be.
I honestly do not feel that black men or Latin men are the only men capable of being PERVASIVE when it comes to hitting on women out on the streets of the U.S.
The article gives that impression.
As for the case of a woman’s “fat booty”, white men are interested in them, big time! Maybe it’s a regional thing. I’m from the South, and I see white men checking out that part of a woman’s body ALL the time, especially black women. I see it in my neighborhood and in the office where I work. These guys aren’t shy about it either.
So, the “White Man = Anti Booty” debate is funny to me. Is it only a down South thing?
Probably not.
When it comes to people noticing people and being “interested” in what they notice….I feel that ethnicity is irrelavant.
I hear that from black women and men, but it’s not what I see from the white side. I see a lot of white women who don’t date black men at all, a lot like myself who’ve only been serious about maybe one black man, and only a few who have an ongoing special interest in black men. Maybe it looks like a bigger dose of interest from the black side because of the difference in numbers? It only takes a minority of white women to make a lot of white women pursuing black men, relative to the available number of black men.
Oh, OK. I agree with this. And also that it’s certainly possible to both be racist and “interested” in the people you’re prejudiced against.
I actually don’t think white men are anti booty. I think white women are overly anxious about normally curvy booties. And that occasionally the less pleasant variety of white man takes advantage of that anxiety to get in a snide remark at a woman he’s mad at for some other reason.
I am not saying white women want serious relationships with black men.
I am primarily referring to my high school experiences - San Fernando Valley.
Please it is not wishful thinking on my part about white women desiring black men because personally only deal with black women (I am married to a black woman).
I can only speak from my experiences as a Californian native. We have a more liberal and progressive culture than the rest of the country. Thus, I have experienced white women for the most of my life being attracted to black men. (I am definitely not ashamed or proud of that fact).
I do not know of any ethnic group that does not focus on black men’s genatalia - Japanese, Korean, Arab, European, and Latin culture all have a point of reference on this subject.
In addition, they all have historically denigrated black women as well as sexual objects.
Please refer to scientific journals regarding sexual myths about blacks -
One must understand that no other ethnic group on the planet has been written about more than black people.
The world whether we like it or not has an obsession with race and particularly black people.
PC people want to think that racial issues will soon go away by talking about race and having honest discussions.
EMPOWERMENT OF BLACK PEOPLE IS THE ONLY WAY -CHARITY OF THE HEART IS LIKE THE DIRECTION OF THE WIND - ITS TRENDY - AND WILL GO IN THE DIRECTION THAT BENEFITS BLACKS SOMETIMES AND PENALIZES BLACKS
Jews, Whites, Asians, Latinos, Arabs, Persians, Indians all have an opinion about black people.
I know many white women who would love to have bodies like black women, but the vast majority of white women do not. So that was women offended because a black men gazed at her is understandable.
I as a black man know that we stare at women way too much. I try to talk to other black men about staring at women but they just do not get it. I personally go out of way not to gaze but it is hard.
Black men naturally produce more testosterone than whites and asians that is just a biological fact.
For example, it is not by coincidence that people of West African descent win sprint races or excel in certain sports.
As a black man we must be mindful that we cannot go around staring at white women and think that there will be no consequences. We must teach our sons at an early age about how they will be perceived by others.
The athletes especially must be taught this.
I hear that from black women and men, but its not what I see from the white side. I see a lot of white women who dont date black men at all, a lot like myself whove only been serious about maybe one black man, and only a few who have an ongoing special interest in black men.
You obviously don’t watch enough of the daytime court/trash talk shows! LOL and ROTFL!
Qusan, So you get your sociological information from Jerry Springer?
Tsk, tsk
But Lynne is right, and the data backs her up. Most white women don’t date or marry black men.
The myth that white women lust after black men is related to the ideology created during slavery that suggested that black men were overly sexual. Many white men not only wanted to “protect” white women from black men, but they also feared the idea of losing white women to black men, as if black men have something that they don’t.
Ron said, “Thus, I have experienced white women for the most of my life being attracted to black men. (I am definitely not ashamed or proud of that fact).”
Ron, there are two ways to look at it. You could say, “See white women are interested in black men because about half of the women who have approached me are white.” But here is the problem with that line of thinking, California has a tiny black population, so if 40% of the women who approach you are black, 15% are Latinas, 5% are Asians, and 40% are white that would actually mean that black women are disproportionately interested in you because the black population in Cali is like 5%.
Another way to look at it would be to look at it from a white woman’s perspective. If you interviewed 100 white women how many would show interest in black men? Definitely, a minority. I would guess about 1/2 of white women in Cali would say that they would date a black man, and most of them either never have or are lying to look racially tolerant. So that leaves you with about 25%, who would date black men, and many of them wouldn’t marry black men or they wouldn’t let the dating relationship extend beyond a casual relationship.
I agree that Cali is more tolerant of IR’s, but they are still fairly uncomon.
Ron said, “I as a black man know that we stare at women way too much. I try to talk to other black men about staring at women but they just do not get it. I personally go out of way not to gaze but it is hard.”
I think all races of men have a problem with this one.
Ron said, “Black men naturally produce more testosterone than whites and asians that is just a biological fact.”
You are going to need to provide evidence to me on that one. Evidence that includes control variables.
Ron said, “For example, it is not by coincidence that people of West African descent win sprint races or excel in certain sports.”
I don’t want to derail Sewere’s thread, but I would argue that this is related to environmental factors not biology.
Ron said, “As a black man we must be mindful that we cannot go around staring at white women and think that there will be no consequences. We must teach our sons at an early age about how they will be perceived by others.”
Well, I would argue that if this is a white woman, she needs to chill out and not worry about black men looking at her. If she was equally bothered by white men looking at her, I would say OK, but I have a feeling that is not the case.
Ron said, Thus, I have experienced white women for the most of my life being attracted to black men. (I am definitely not ashamed or proud of that fact).
Ron, there are two ways to look at it. You could say, See white women are interested in black men because about half of the women who have approached me are white. But here is the problem with that line of thinking, California has a tiny black population, so if 40% of the women who approach you are black, 15% are Latinas, 5% are Asians, and 40% are white that would actually mean that black women are disproportionately interested in you because the black population in Cali is like 5%.
Actually, California has one of the largest populations of black people and until recently was only behind New York. Now granted California has a small percentage of Black people. Please keep in mind that black people represented are larger percentage of California’s population before it became a magnet for immigrants in the 1990’s. For example, Blacks represented at least %25 of the population of Los Angeles in the 1980’s that is why Bradley was the Mayor.
Another way to look at it would be to look at it from a white womans perspective. If you interviewed 100 white women how many would show interest in black men? Definitely, a minority. I would guess about 1/2 of white women in Cali would say that they would date a black man, and most of them either never have or are lying to look racially tolerant. So that leaves you with about 25%, who would date black men, and many of them wouldnt marry black men or they wouldnt let the dating relationship extend beyond a casual relationship.
My point had nothing to do with what percentage of white women would marry black men.
I agree that Cali is more tolerant of IRs, but they are still fairly uncomon. IR’s in California is quite common. Asians/White, Black/Asian, Hispanic/Asian, Hispanic/Black, White/Hispanic, Black/White -
Rachel -
I need to be more specific and narrowly tailor my statements although a great of generalization will be necessary.
First, you have completely distorted my statement by fashioning a quote that fits your ideology.
Ron’s Statement: “Thus, I have experienced white women for the most of my life being attracted to black men. (I am definitely not ashamed or proud of that fact).
vs.
Rachel’s Interpretive Spin of Ron’s Statement: See white women are interested in black men because about half of the women who have approached me are white.
Your approach does not address my statement/conclusion whatsoever. I made a general statement that I have always found white women attracted to black men.
The fact that white women find black men attractive should not be at issue. The fact that white men find black women attractive should not be at issue. My point is that some white female who feels like she has a fat butt because black men gaze at her is completely understandable.
FIRST BLACK MEN from West Africa (there are some exceptions)(farming & sedentary communities not nomadic/pastoralists) have been programmed through the ages to be attracted to women with round butts and small waists that is a natural impulse that has not been empirically tested (at least to my knowledge)but common sense makes that a commonly accepted fact. This impulse is not cultural but biological.
I could care less whether or not white women are attracted to black men. I am not some proponent of black men dating white women because they have something special that black women do not. I have dated enough women of different backgrounds to know women are pretty much all the same.
I am a proponent of black women dating non-black men though. I think it is actually a great idea. It validates my belief system that black women are the most beautiful and caring women the world has ever known. So if non-black men see that then it validates my belief system.
Someone please, PLEASE reassure me that Ron is a clever performance artist and not real. Please.
Raincitygirl -
Deal with the arguments presented rather than resorting to personal attacks - that will not get your point across.
I am particularly sorry my pointview does not fall into your preconceived notions.
Its big world out their - now be a big girl.
I think that the sexism in rap is a huge problem. I do not condone this woman for the way she feels. Solely focusing on black men, however, is missing the target. Most people who consume rap music are white men.
Coincidentally, there is a new Carl’s Jr./Hardee’s fast food commercial called “I Like Flat Buns”. (Promoting a new sandwich.) It features two white guys rapping about how they like flat buns. There’s a shot of one of the guys at a chalkboard, erasing the butt off of a drawing of the lower half of a woman’s body. The longer version of the commercial, on the restaurant’s website, features a white female teacher caressing what God didn’t give her…
Well, here’s my White man perspective. Be forewarned ladies, as I am going to be as forward as I can, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. Here are my thoughts and feelings on this:
I love, absolutely *LOVE* women with big hips and a big butt. That drives me crazy! I am a white man, german and scotch-irish so I am as White as you can be. There is nothing more beautiful to me than a white woman with big hips and a big butt! Not obese, mind you, but thick and curvy in the right places! ;)
I resent the idea that only black males like women with big butts. That is certainly not true in my case as I am a white man who prefers women with a nice big butt, small waist, big hips and a lot of “cushion for the pushin.” The media and rap music (Sir Mix A Lot, etc) promote this idea that it is black males who own the monopoly on liking women with big butts and that us white males don’t. There’s nothing sexually attractive about a “flat butt,” narrow hips and skinny features.
Here’s the thing: all men prefer a woman with a good hip-to-waist ratio. The smaller the waist in comparison to the hips, the better. Ideally, a woman should have a 26-29 inch waist and a 40+ hips. That’s a lot of booty! It’s about child-bearing hips and all that. Common sense. Biology. That is not to say that all men like that, though.
The “fashion model” stick figure lanky tall types do nothing for me. My ideal woman is about 5′6″ to 5″9″ with long hair and an hourglass figure with a big butt! Or someone who looks like She-Ra (J/K). A woman with big hips who wears tight clothing, accentuates her hips by wearing tight belts, wears high heels is enough to put me in a mental hospital for how overcome with sexual lust I will have! It can be downright painful to see that kind of beauty and not be able to have sex with that woman!! Of course, I am a gentleman and would never make a woman feel uncomfortable with my sexual desire, and besides, I am not the type of guy who jumps in bed with a woman without getting to know her and like her as a person first, but that doesn’t mean I can’t fantasize and be lustful as long as I am not hurting anyone or making anyone uncomfortable.
I think black men are much more bold about hitting on women than white men are. There are various reasons for this, I think, sense of entitlement being one of them, but too much to get into here. I think many black males feel that they are entitled to White women for some reason with the increase in interracial relationships in recent years. Most White men will see a woman they are attracted to and not say a thing. White men have been taught to internalize their feelings, not show emotion and not show any weakness. Setting yourself up for rejection is a form of weakness, but White men need to learn to be more available to women and not being afraid to talk to them or afraid to be rejected. Even if you’re rejected at least you have let that woman know that she is desirable, and that can make her feel good, even if I am a toad! LOL
Keep in mind, these are only my opinions. I think society expects more from white men so they are not as willing to put themselves out there in the realm of the “bad boy.” We’re all supposed to be the “knight in shining armor” that the woman will choose like in all those Cosmopolitan articles. Black men, however, because of societal racial expectations, seem to be more prone to being the “bad boy,” the sexualized male, to show their sexuality and not feel ashamed about it.
But anyway, to relate an experience of mine:
Once I was at Barnes & Noble and at the checkout counter the lady had the most amazing hips and butt… she was on the short side, not fat or obese, but had very wide and beautiful hips. Very pretty, too, and my heart was beating a mile a minute. She asked me if I wanted a bag (they always ask that, don’t they?) and I said no. I thanked her and left with my purchase. I literally sat in my car for half an hour trying to get the courage up to go back in the store to ask her out. I finally went back in, walked over to the counter and there she was… I asked her “yeah, I need a bag afterall” and tried to be charming but it didn’t come across that way, at least I didn’t think so because I was so nervous. I then nervously asked her if she’d like to have a cup of coffee later, and she said she works until closing and that she can’t, and I got the message that she wasn’t interested, but who knows? Maybe I gave up too easily. Anyway, as I was walking away, she then said “but thank you” and that made me feel good. My problem is that I’m just not good with the ladies, I need to work on that.
I think black males grow up in a sub culture that really is sexualized, much moreso than white culture. The objectification of women seems more prevalent in that black subculture, at least from my perspective. Is it fair to say that? The idea of “once you go black, you never go back” and the myth of the black penis being bigger are all things that contribute to the high self esteem of black males and their confidence with women. When they see white women, especially white women with a big butt, they feel like it’s their prerogative to approach them and give her access to the “large black male penis.” They seem to be much more flirtatious, too, and the black males I have observed always seem to be chatting up or hitting on the white girls or at least trying to befriend them. I’ve noticed many white women always go out of their way to be nice to black males, too. One thing you white ladies can do to get more attention from white men is to be a little more nicer to us poor white guys! Hey, we want some lovin’ too! LOL
I don’t mean to sound whiny or anything
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know 100% honest from me that I love your big butt!!! I think women who have that need to be careful and responsible about that, though, because it is like a weapon. That is a powerful amount of sexual power and it drives a lot of men crazy, men of all races. Sure, there will always be men who prefer the skinny girls, but as a man — a white man — I love a voluptuous big hipped woman — women with curves!!
In the 1940s and 1950s fashion really enhanced women’s hips and curves, the tight skirt suits, the pencil skirts… yum! *Drools* I wish women dressed like that today, but productivity might go down considerably! LOL Anyway, if you look at the female starlets of that era — Sophia Loren, even Marilyn Monroe, the emphasis was on the curves, the fleshy hips and butt, the womanliness of woman!! It’s biological: men want women with child-bearing hips. I may be a bit more obsessive than most men, but a big juicy ass is pure heaven as far as I am concerned. Now that wasn’t very gentlemanly, was it? However, body parts are a small figment and don’t make the woman. Personality, humor are important — moreso than body type, and I would certainly date women who didn’t fall into the category of “having a big butt.” It’s about the person, not just the sexual features, but as men we are very visual, so physical features are important, as they probably are for women as well (women tend to prefer taller men over short).
But in conclusion, I guess I should just say “I like big butts and I cannot lie” and leave it at that. Merry Christmas everyone!
-Alex
OMG, Alex, where to start?
Alex, you have conflated race assumptions and
sexual/gender assumptions, and managed to insult non-white men, non-white women, white women, and white men. All in one post. I think that might deserve an award.
>heres my White man perspective
No, it’s your perspective, and you happen to be white. You do not speak for all white men.
Let me now say: physical attractiveness is socially determined and changeable as any other fad. The only universals throughout human history appear to be symmetry for men and women, [facial or body], which denotes good luck and general good health, the hip-waist ratio for women (which yes, is possibly an indicator of a a higher likelihood of easier delivery, but not exclusive), etc. But universal means common, not absolute.
>nothing more beautiful to me than a white woman with big hips *snip* resent the idea that only black males like women *snip*all men prefer a woman
Do you realize you make no differentiation between white women and women? Whether you’re talking about yourself or other men, of whatever ethnicity? But you do tend to focus on black men and white women?
>It can be downright painful to see that kind of beauty and not be able to have sex with that woman!!
So it’s ALL about appearance? Ugh. What about those of us with DONT have that tiny waist to go with large hips and what have you? What about squarish women? What about very pretty but skinny overall women?
>that doesnt mean I cant fantasize and be lustful as long as I am not hurting anyone or making anyone uncomfortable.
Yeah, well, I had to read all that, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable. I suspect you got a kick out of writing this post too, based on the repetition of language and the length. I’m not sure how I feel about that.
>I think black men are much more bold about hitting on women than white men are. *snip* >Most White men will see a woman they are attracted to and not say a thing.
Bull crap! ALL BLACK MEN? MOST WHITE MEN? Not in my experience.
>sense of entitlement being one of them, but too much to get into here.
Oh no, you brought it up you have to get into it. ENTITLEMENT? If anything black men have been told to NOT expect anything but scraps.
>for some reason
Oh come on, don’t’ hedge, what are you really talking about?
>the myth of the black penis being bigger *snip* with the increase in interracial relationships in recent years.
And we have a winner! maybe IRs of all types, not just black men/white women have increased in the last 40 YEARS (not exactly recently) because people no longer fear being fired, disowned, arrested, beaten, or KILLED for it? Just a thought.
>White men have been taught to internalize their feelings, not show emotion and not show any weakness. Setting yourself up for rejection is a form of weakness, but White men need to learn to be more available to women and not being afraid to talk to them or afraid to be rejected.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is what I believe is called PROJECTION. See B&N anecdote that follows.
>I think society expects more from white men so they are not as willing to put themselves out there in the realm of the bad boy. Were all supposed to be the knight in shining armor that the woman will choose like in all those Cosmopolitan articles. Black men, however, because of societal racial expectations, seem to be more prone to being the bad boy, the sexualized male, to show their sexuality and not feel ashamed about it.
Right, blame Cosmo. And not, say, the hypersexualization/dehumanization of black people, especially black men, FOR CENTURIES? Ann, wanna cut and paste some data in here?
>I think black males grow up in a sub culture that really is sexualized, much moreso than white culture. The objectification of women seems more prevalent in that black subculture, at least from my perspective. Is it fair to say that?
If you have to ask, then the answer is NO. We are currently in a youth-centered, hypersexual popular culture mode. We’ve been in it in one form or another for some time, and it didn’t start with rock and roll. I blame the early colonists, religious/sexual repressions of the 1800s, the schitzoid nature of race relations as it related to sex and sexual imagery and sexual abuse, etc. Maybe even throw in Prohibition insanity, in which the law conflicted with the culture in a big way, and the popular media of the time (newspapers and radio) gloried in it. It is NOT a black or white thing. It’s a U.S. thing.
>The idea of once you go black, you never go back and the myth of the black penis being bigger are all things that contribute to the high self esteem of black males and their confidence with women.
So, all the not-so-obnoxious… sorry, not-so-secure black men I’ve known are what, not really black?
>When they see white women, especially white women with a big butt,
Here we go again is it white women, or all women, or what? Give me a break. You’re obsessed with your IDEAS of black culture and black men that have little to do with reality.
>or at least trying to befriend them.
Oh horrors! Men who are friends with women!
>Ive noticed many white women always go out of their way to be nice to black males, too.
Um, maybe that’s just your insecurities showing. Again. Women today often have friends who are men, no matter what ethnicity.
>I think women who have that need to be careful and responsible about that, though, because it is like a weapon.
Oh God, please, a body part that is shaped by diet, personal activity, and genetics is a WEAPON? That men are driven crazy by? Is this going to be the next sexual harassment/rape defense? She had a big ass, Judge, I couldn’t HELP myself!
>In the 1940s and 1950s fashion really enhanced womens hips and curves, the tight skirt suits, the pencil skirts yum!
Um, maybe because the population of Europe and the US were coming out of WWI recovery, the Great Depression, and WWII-era war rationing, and fast food was in its infancy? There wasn’t a lot of body fat in the populace at large.
>*Drools* I wish women dressed like that today, but productivity might go down considerably!
You’re right. My WORK productivity. I just could NOT delineate wetlands and tag trees in a poodle skirt, and can you imagine fighting fires in high heels? I work with machetes for my day job. I run after a toddler and hike on trails in my free time. I LIKE that jeans and sneakers are normal attire for both men and women now, and I would not want to go back to oppressive, constricting clothing that in the last 300 years has been generally more restrictive for 51% of the population.
I guess you want us to just type fast and make a good cup of coffee, though?
>Now that wasnt very gentlemanly, was it?
No, but this whole post wasn’t very polite, why start now?
>Personality, humor are important
Now you tell us? Me thinks the gentleman protests too much and far, far too late.
I think black men are much more bold about hitting on women than white men are.
On the contrary. Men of all races hit on me. (Cue Musetta’s aria from La Boheme.)
Seriously, though, Alex, white men are just as bold about hitting on women as black men. Trust me on this one.
There are various reasons for this, I think, sense of entitlement being one of them
Sense of entitlement? You seriously think black men act more entitled to date white women than white men do? Are we living in the same country? I measure entitlement by who gets angry at being turned down, and who has trouble being told to go away. And, since that’s all about power and status and what people think they can get away with, it’s not generally black men who have trouble taking no from a white woman.
Black men, however, because of societal racial expectations, seem to be more prone to being the bad boy,
Not the black men I knew at Stanford.
to show their sexuality and not feel ashamed about it.
Although, I can’t say that I consider showing your sexuality and not feeling ashamed about it an inherently bad thing (assuming sensitivity to the other person’s wishes, and other ethical considerations).
The idea of once you go black, you never go back
is false; lots of women date black men and wind up married to white men.
the black males I have observed always seem to be chatting up or hitting on the white girls or at least trying to befriend them
Do you see how your standard here is skewed toward seeing black men as hitting on white women? You’re counting every attempt by a black man to befriend a white woman. How many times do you see white men attempting to befriend white women? How many times do you bother to notice? I’ll bet you’ve attempted to befriend a few white women yourself (maybe even a few women of other races).
Ive noticed many white women always go out of their way to be nice to black males, too.
No, not really. Women of various races are nice to men of various races that they happen to like.
But, here’s the small grain of truth in what you’re saying; when it does happen that a white woman and a black man are flirting, the pursuit definitely goes both ways. Same as for any other relationship. Women choose, women pursue; we’re not the passive recipients of the attention of whoever wants to hit on us.
One thing you white ladies can do to get more attention from white men is to be a little more nicer to us poor white guys! Hey, we want some lovin too! LOL
Because it’s not as if you ever saw people dating within their race. Certainly not white women. Alex, the overwhelming majority of white women I’ve ever seen wind up dating and marrying white men. Just how much more lovin’ do you need?
That is a powerful amount of sexual power and it drives a lot of men crazy
Sexual power goes both ways, too. And we have just as much reason to choose the men who actually drive us crazy (whatever their race and other characteristics) as you do to prefer women with big butts and ignore those with flat ones.
First of all, let me say that I stumbled upon this site, saw the topics and the discussion was interesting — smart posters here — and I thought what the hay? I’ll jump in. It was the wee hours of the morning, and I felt compelled to post. Again, I don’t mean to intrude on a fine forum, and hope I haven’t caused any undue stress with my post. Now, my post is what I feel and think, maybe not as well thought out as I could have gone for, but there it is. I stand by my post though, and I am being honest and if I wasn’t, then I wouldn’t have posted. Honesty can sometimes be harsh, though. Perhaps I was being “too” honest and should reel it back a bit. Dare I say I allowed my “tongue-in-cheek” side to show a bit as well. Admittedly, I am a bit ashamed for revealing a little too much about my sexual preference and was apprehensive to see if there were any posts in reply to it… and am a bit surprised to see that my post was allowed, but I’m glad it was. This seems like a good place to discuss topics, and I would like to contribute when I can.
Lyonside — thanks for replying and fair enough! I don’t disagree with you, per se, I just feel differently about some things. I realize I don’t speak for all white men.
I don’t know if I believe that physical attractiveness is socially determined the way a fad would be. There are constants I believe in what attracts the sexes physically. Certain things are appealing to the male’s sexual hunger and “what’s in style” has nothing to do with that! Granted, men have varying tastes and have varying preferences. I think current-day societal norms bar men — especially white men — from “liking a woman with a big butt.”
But perhaps I am misunderstanding you because I do agree that what is considered “sexy” can change based on what the current feelings are towards sexuality. The Venus of Willendorf artifact is the representation of an obese female… the “mother” of the ancient stone-age past. Volumes of flesh, maternalism, these things at that point were perhaps the beauty standard. Women’s dresses in the Victorian age were very big and billowed out at the hips to express a sexual ideal perhaps rather than just fashion. I think standards of beauty can change throughout history but there are always constants and what that constant is, is this:
Sexual stimulation! For the most part, and I believe this to be true of most men, we want a big hipped woman, not just for the “easier to squeeze a baby through” but because it is sexually pleasing to the eye and stimulates the penis. It is much more than just what is considered the sexual norm because the penis doesn’t care what society thinks, the penis is either hard or it isn’t, and big booties make the penis hard (well, mine, anyway). That is not to say that only women with big butts make me stimulated — not at all! All manner of women I find attractive, but my preference is, well, you know.
Visual stimulation, the fleshiness, the bountiful roundess of a woman’s buttocks… like catnip! This is something that is unexplainable! It is sexual urge and impulse which is perhaps unexplainable.
White women tend to believe their large backsides are unappealing. It takes a lot to encourage a white woman that she looks great with a little bit of weight back there or even a lot! It depends. Our societal standards are not kind to any kind of “fat.” Black women I think are much more comfortable with their bodies. The thing is, black males are unashamed about their sexual, physical lust and black women know this, know that black men like their “big booties.” White men need to venture into that animalistic lustful realm of sexual release to the point where they assure their women that they are desired, and I think for the most part couples do… but white women are always saying “honey, is my butt too big?” I always want to reply back” “honey, it’s not big enough!”
Now, I don’t want to influence any ladies here to go run out and fatten up or anything! No, no - just be who you are. Losing weight is good and healthy but a little bit of curves never hurt anyone even if the media might think you overwight, you’re just perfect and womanly.
Different body types, too. You mention “square” type bodies. This is complex because physical attractiveness varies. Men have different tastes but I do believe there on average, most men want a woman with the hips. This is a complex subject and I realize I am not touching all bases here. Different societies arounf the world, different races, will have their own standards of beauty… but then why is it that in Japanese animated pornography you see a lot of voluptuous, fleshy, curvy women? It is interesting, isn’t it?
I do think there are certain unremovable constants that urge the male sexual desire when it comes to what they want physically in a woman. But, there are exceptions, men’s tastes vary, and these are only my opinions and I certainly don’t hold the monopoly on “what men find sexy in women.” Fear not, ladies, if you’re a woman, you are attractive and have something to offer physically as well as the obvious personality qualities. Love is the most important thing anyway, regardless of what the physical body hungers for.
You raise the issue of: “So its ALL about appearance? Ugh. What about those of us with DONT have that tiny waist to go with large hips and what have you? What about squarish women? What about very pretty but skinny overall women?”
It’s not all about appearance, I am only sharing with you my personal physical preference, witth a touch of humor. That is not to say that I can’t be happy and in love with a woman who doesn’t have a big butt. Not at all! There are so many things that go into making a woman appealing to a man.
Sexuality takes no prisoners, though. I am not a perfect looking man, but I keep in shape and I feel good about how I look. Women don’t seem to mind either, but let’s face it: looks are important! Not all men have the same tastes and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think that I am good looking, but what guy doesn’t? LOL
Ladies, don’t take what I’m saying too seriously. But I can’t lie about having the urge to look and lust after certain women with certain features. It’s nature.
You said: Bull crap! ALL BLACK MEN? MOST WHITE MEN? Not in my experience.
You’re right, and I was generalizing — made way too many generalizations in my post and that was wrong.
You said: Oh no, you brought it up you have to get into it. ENTITLEMENT? If anything black men have been told to NOT expect anything but scraps.
Now this is interestng to me. I don’t know if I agree with that in this day and age. I think black men have been very spoiled with white female attention for the most part. Not in all areas of the country or world, but in many environments. But perhaps I should rethink that… and I do realize that the majority of white women prefer white men. I understand that. I know that. You must understand, though, that I am coming from an emotional perspective. It hurts when I see a black man with a beautiful white woman. It kills me inside when I see that, so I am coming from an emotional perspective.
Let me throw this out to you: all species want to protect their women from “outsiders.” Men of different races are outsiders. During the days of slavery I have read that black men hated it when their women were taken sexually by white slave masters. Now that black men are free, they have access to white women and can freely date them. Black men know that it hurts white men, and they relish it — as they should! If I was black, I would want a white woman. But it still hurts me as a white man to see a white woman turn her back on her own men. Now, I realize that statement is wrong. But again, I am coming from a sense of emotional insecurity here. Another thing, white women because of feminism have been to c ertain extent conditioned to not rely on white men, to possibly blame white men for keeping them down, so when white women and black men get together, it is almost a way for both of them to get back at the white man. It becomes a form of sexual competition. When I see a black man and white woman together, I think that it is as much making a statement as it is wanting to be with that person. Let’s face it: a white woman who dates black has a lot to lose… from family perhaps not liking it to getting dirty stares in public. She is giving up a lot, so that decision better be damn well important to her! Again, it is not only wanting to be with a black man to her, but making a social statement to other people around her as well.
Look, I am not denying the racism that shrouds our American history and perhaps the present. Racism is a complex issue. But whites aren’t the only ones who can be racist or prejudiced or discriminative. And I, as a white American man do not feel in any way “guilty” for slavery of the past or even the plight of black people in America today in the inner cities when much of it is by their choice and doing. That is a whole other issue, though. The issues of stereotypes as well… and stereotypes exist because they are based on truths.
You said: If you have to ask, then the answer is NO. We are currently in a youth-centered, hypersexual popular culture mode. Weve been in it in one form or another for some time, and it didnt start with rock and roll. I blame the early colonists, religious/sexual repressions of the 1800s, the schitzoid nature of race relations as it related to sex and sexual imagery and sexual abuse, etc. Maybe even throw in Prohibition insanity, in which the law conflicted with the culture in a big way, and the popular media of the time (newspapers and radio) gloried in it. It is NOT a black or white thing. Its a U.S. thing.
I agree. Again, I made perhaps too many generalizations. This issue of the hypersexualization of American youth, etc. I agree that it is bad… when I see white girls referring to themselves as “gangsters” and white boys are flashing gang signs because they think that is cool, how do you explain that? Tattooes seem to be on everyone, body peircings and there seems to be a higher rate of this kind of attention-whoring. Decadence… too much decadence and not enough principle and morality if you ask me. Now, thankfully, I believe the majority of youth are smart enough to avoid that kind of thing, but pop culture does seem to promote that type of decadent imagery.
You said: So, all the not-so-obnoxious sorry, not-so-secure black men Ive known are what, not really black?
I can’t answer that, but I am speaking of stereotypes which are based on truths. Not all people — not all black people — are obnoxious, of course I know that. I think I should have narrowed my ideas around the “thug” gangster rap subcultre which I detest.
You said: Here we go again is it white women, or all women, or what? Give me a break. Youre obsessed with your IDEAS of black culture and black men that have little to do with reality.
Maybe you’re right! I am speaking from my experience though about white women being seemingly more attentive toward black men when black men talk with them. Maybe it’s just me, though. Or maybe black men are just really good with women — another stereotype.
Now, I live in an area that is 90% white, and I am grateful for that, which I won’t apologize for. It is rare to see a black person where I live, so when I do see one, I am aware of him or her. Not out of fear, but the fact that “there is a black person there.” I’ve seen white women in stores stop what they’re doing to talk to the black guys. White women seem to treat them like pets, and I am not trying to be ridiculous here. That because they are black they deserve more attention. I don’t know… and because I have observed some things does not make that the norm, I understand that.
You said: Oh God, please, a body part that is shaped by diet, personal activity, and genetics is a WEAPON? That men are driven crazy by? Is this going to be the next sexual harassment/rape defense? She had a big ass, Judge, I couldnt HELP myself!
I can’t help but laugh at that, not at it mind you, but I thought it was humorous
No, of course not I don’t think that a woman’s butt is such that it will absolve men from committing inhumane crimes against women — of course not! But you ladies need to know how you drive us crazy with your sexual beauty!!!
You said: Youre right. My WORK productivity. I just could NOT delineate wetlands and tag trees in a poodle skirt, and can you imagine fighting fires in high heels? I work with machetes for my day job. I run after a toddler and hike on trails in my free time. I LIKE that jeans and sneakers are normal attire for both men and women now, and I would not want to go back to oppressive, constricting clothing that in the last 300 years has been generally more restrictive for 51% of the population.
Okay, fair enough! It doesn’t mean that guys still don’t look when women do wear shapely clothing to work (skirts, etc.) I know women hate high heels
But I am thankful you still pull them out for us guys every now and then! ;)
BTW a machete at work? Sounds like an interesting and fun job.
You said: I guess you want us to just type fast and make a good cup of coffee, though?
No, of course not. Again, take my post with a bit of tongue in cheek. I admit, I generalize too much and I shouldn’t be absolved for that… but I do stand by my post, feel differently about some things but I admit I may be wrong about some as well. These are only my feelings and opinions.
Great, another long post. Anyway, hope there are no hard feelings to anyone here. I do realize this discussion is an old one and I dug it up from the archives I suppose. Anyway, the sharing of ideas can never hurt anyone I don’t think, even if some of mine might be on the oppositie side of political correctness and good sense as well! I’m not perfect. See? the subject of “big butts” always gets me in trouble.
OK Alex:
First off, don’t apologize for finding the site - if Rachel didn’t want new people in, she wouldn’t have it on the web.
>The Venus of Willendorf artifact is the representation of an obese female the mother of the ancient stone-age past. Volumes of flesh, maternalism, these things at that point were perhaps the beauty standard.
“obese” in regards to these figures likely means PREGNANT. And yes, in eras where the only “fat” = really good with hunting or high status, fat is a beauty mark. But you dont’ have to go to paleolithic humanity for that - look at the artists of the Rennaissance into the 1800s.
>It hurts when I see a black man with a beautiful white woman. It kills me inside when I see that, so I am coming from an emotional perspective.
I hope you know how RACIST this is. It KILLS YOU INSIDE? Why? What the hell should it matter if a woman of European descent (you assume based on appearance) and a man of primarily African descent (you assume based on appearance), ugly, fugly, or drop dead handsome, walk down the street holding hands? Or even live together? Get married? Have kids?
You know, it’s NOT the 1960s. Most IR couples I know (and that’s not limited to or exclusive of black/white couples) don’t do it for kicks, to make a statement, etc. THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY HAPPENED TO FALL IN LIKE/LOVE WITH SOMEONE OF THAT ETHNICITY. This cannot be said enough. Talk to REAL couples (not “just hooked up on Wednesday” couples), and they’ll say the same thing.
We’re people for God’s sake, not OUTSIDERS. We’re citizens of the world, and in this case, the U.S. - we are your EQUALS. You can’t claim “personal/emotional preference” here. You can claim “racism.”
At least be HONEST about it. Damn.
>During the days of slavery I have read that black men hated it when their women were taken sexually by white slave masters.
Wait, wait, wait - so black men hated when black women were raped, because of HUMAN NATURE and sexuak competition? And it only happened during slavery? (Guess those extra 100 years of legal and illegal oppression were just a figment of our collective imaginations?) Not to mention that free people of color were also at risk for rape and sexual manipulation, from anyone white who chose to be that type of predator. The law was NOT on their side.
How about caring about their families? How about caring about their mothers, their sisters, their daughters, and not wanting them ATTACKED at worst, manipulated and coerced at best? That is human nature, but it has nothing to do with race or “outsiders” or sexual competition. Rape is a crime of violence and opportunity that takes a sexual form. Predators are a universal human phenomenon - what we had under chattal slavery, however, was sanctioned use of rape as a method of control and torture, while those in charge pretended that nothing was happening.
And as someone whose friends are rape survivors, let me tell you - WOMEN HATE RAPE TOO, dammit. Don’t bring RAPE into your warped ideas of sexuality and sexual preferences. Unless you’re trying to tell us something?
>I cant answer that, but I am speaking of stereotypes which are based on truths. Not all people not all black people are obnoxious, of course I know that. I think I should have narrowed my ideas around the thug gangster rap subcultre which I detest.*snip*>Now, I live in an area that is 90% white, and I am grateful for that, which I wont apologize for. It is rare to see a black person where I live
If you live in an area w/out many black people (or any ethnic minorities, I suspect), and you’re GRATEFUL FOR THAT, then how in hell do you THINK you know that stereotypes are based on TRUTH? Can you not understand the contradiction in that?
Don’t you dare look at the crap on TV and think that black people are even “mostly” like that. YOU DON’T KNOW, by your own admission. And you’re not likely to know, with the racist attitudes you have. Last time I checked, the owners of Fox and VH1 (the channels producing most of the minstrel shows) were white. The same for the record companies that put out most of the “gangsta” rap. Just because they pay people to pander to the lowest common denominator does not mean that that media product represents ANYONE but the lowest common denominator.
>BTW a machete at work? Sounds like an interesting and fun job.
I’m an environmental scientist. The machete is usually for thorn bushes. So if you see this biracial, interracially married mom in a field with a machete, keep your distance, mmmkay?
>the subject of big butts always gets me in trouble
No, it’s your racism and sexism that are getting you into trouble. Not the topic at hand.
Lynn & Lyonside pretty much have it covered. Seriously… other people’s romantic choices aren’t all about you in particular, or your racial group in general. Have a modicum of humility. And this whole “black people haven’t got over slavery and they want their revenge, they want their bloody satisfaction” thing is getting REALLY old.
Alex - what about black women and their beauty? Your ideas of/obssession with white women is disturbing. You seem to have the idea that all men share this.
w00t Lyonside!! You rock
your replies are great!
You’re probably stepping on a landmine, sarah. I believe this quote subtly sums up Alex’s thoughts on black females, his strong desire for prodigious hindquarters nonwithstanding: “If I was black, I would want a white woman.”
Quite a few white male opponents of black male/white female relationships put a generous portion of the “blame” on black females, theorizing, in short, that if black females weren’t so abrasive personality-wise and/or physically unattractive, black males would keep their hands off of white women. But hey, I don’t want to put words in Alex’s mouth, so I’ll let him answer your question, and invite him to correct my analysis if need be… *grabs big bowl of fluffy kettle corn*
Alex, question… why did you choose to post here instead of a place like Stormfront where your views on interracial relationships would be positively recieved?
Oh, here it is, right under “make doctor’s appointment” and “buy orange juice”… “get white folks back for slavery”! I’m sorry, Alex, I stand corrected.
I THANK Alex for his honesty. Beating him up over why he’s right or wrong is not really helpful…its how he feels. Its not very often I see a white man being so openly honest about his sexual and racial feelings. I have to admit that it kills me inside a little when I see a beautiful Sister with a white guy too.
Sammy: Yes, Alex has a right to his opinion of attractive women. But he posted it here, which means other readers get to voice THEIR OPINION TOO. That’s how free speech works - someone gets to hate on me and spout WRONG information, and then we get to respond. We don’t nod and smile and say, “OK, that’s cool.” Unless we agree.
Where Alex is going off the deep end is in voicing his sexual stereotypes, erroneous sense of “history,” and mysogynist concepts of what women, white or black, do and do not do and how we should or should not behave. And conflating that with the type of body he’s attracted to (with no shame either, BTW).
I do not thank him for spouting the same crap I’ve heard from various sources, most of which is used to excuse, negate, or trivialize racism and sexism and every way they intersect. At that point, he’s not voicing an opinion, he’s on a very scary soapbox that excuses violence, rape, and assault, one that other feet have stood on, and I have every right to throw tomatoes.
He’s lucky I don’t shove him off said box and smash said box with a sledgehammer. But that’s free speech for you.
I have a question for the impromptu panel (Sammy & Alex):
Are you both referring to the women of your respective racial groups as generally “beautiful” when you say this (interestingly enough, you both used the same preface), or does the emotional pain and suffering only occur if the woman is physically attractive?
Seems to me that over the years, the “Black male gaze” has (for the most part, by the unviversal appeal of Hip-Hop) been liberated from the murderous grip of white supremacy. Remember, it was the fear of the Black male gaze that inflamed white males to lynch and castrate Black men; all in the name of “defending” white womanhood.
Lynn,
your uneasy feelin’ about havin’ a Black guy flirting with you simply because you were white is quite accurate. I call it “desire created by deprivation”. The attractivness of the white woman was artifically enhanced by making her “taboo”…slavery and segregation made white women untouchable…and to violate the code would cost the Black man his life.
“Freedom” for Black men has meant freedom for his eye too…As the “Mandingo” myth gives many white girls freedom to objectify and desire Black guys, Black men themselves are free to lust for and sample the wares of the “pristine” white woman. Objectifing works both ways baby!
And guess what?…For many white men, they are still threatened, repulsed and angered by both extremes!
Lynn Gazis-Sax -
You said: “On the contrary. Men of all races hit on me. (Cue Musettas aria from La Boheme.)”
LOL! Nice touch with the aria.
You said: “Seriously, though, Alex, white men are just as bold about hitting on women as black men. Trust me on this one.”
I do trust you, and I know!
You said: “Sense of entitlement? You seriously think black men act more entitled to date white women than white men do? Are we living in the same country? I measure entitlement by who gets angry at being turned down, and who has trouble being told to go away. And, since thats all about power and status and what people think they can get away with, its not generally black men who have trouble taking no from a white woman.”
I think some black men do, but most probably don’t feel entitled and I know what you mean in the sense that most black men will retreat easier because they probably realize the hurdle they face in trying to date a white woman. As far as who gets angry, I read the Kimberly Klinger article and will post some of it here:
Klinger: “I happened to snap like that once at a car full of black men, and they followed me a couple of blocks, catching up with me at the next light to call me a “white bitch.”
Now, that sounds to me like some black thugs not liking being rejected by whitey! I guess it depends on the black guy. BTW, Klinger’s article is disturbing that men behave that way toward women… my protective juices flow when I read that! I hope women like Klinger can get out of that situation or at least arm themselves and learn how to shoot a firearm. I sympathize with all women who have to deal with thugs and punks harrassing them on the street like that.
You said: “Do you see how your standard here is skewed toward seeing black men as hitting on white women? Youre counting every attempt by a black man to befriend a white woman. How many times do you see white men attempting to befriend white women? How many times do you bother to notice? Ill bet youve attempted to befriend a few white women yourself (maybe even a few women of other races).”
I suppose so. But I subscribe to the school of thought that men and women “can’t be just friends.” I always have to raise an eyebrow toward women who have a lot of “guy friends.” With men and women there will always be that sexual tension, and guys won’t befriend a woman unless they’d also have her as a girlfriend, in my opinion. There are always exceptions, of course.
You said: “But, heres the small grain of truth in what youre saying; when it does happen that a white woman and a black man are flirting, the pursuit definitely goes both ways. Same as for any other relationship. Women choose, women pursue; were not the passive recipients of the attention of whoever wants to hit on us.”
Yes, true! Women make the choice to flirt and willingly engage in it when they so choose. I think it’s all sexual warfare, not to say that in a pejorative sense.
You said: “Sexual power goes both ways, too. And we have just as much reason to choose the men who actually drive us crazy (whatever their race and other characteristics) as you do to prefer women with big butts and ignore those with flat ones.”
Yes, I know. Women have their preferences too, of course. BTW, I wouldn’t say that I ignore women with “flat butts.” I have a hard time ignoring any women.
Anyway, I appreciate you sharing your comments.
Lyonside -
You said: “obese in regards to these figures likely means PREGNANT. And yes, in eras where the only fat = really good with hunting or high status, fat is a beauty mark. But you dont have to go to paleolithic humanity for that - look at the artists of the Rennaissance into the 1800s.”
Yeah, I should have mentioned the paintings! The “rubenesque” style paintings are a good indication of the artist’s desire to capture that bountiful female beauty. The Venus of Willendorf is interesting… almost faceless and focusing on body. I agree that she is pregnant and representing the “mother” dynamic.
You said: I hope you know how RACIST this is. It KILLS YOU INSIDE? Why? What the hell should it matter if a woman of European descent (you assume based on appearance) and a man of primarily African descent (you assume based on appearance), ugly, fugly, or drop dead handsome, walk down the street holding hands? Or even live together? Get married? Have kids?
I realize that is sounds like hyperbole when I say “it kills me inside to see a white woman with a black man.” I should have said it hurts, stings a bit. Like… huh? Wha? Come again? :O
I think it is instinct. Racism is irrelevant to what the body and mind feel. I think it’s purely natural, animalistic instinct.
Well, it’s a complicated issue. America is a free country and people of any race can date, marry and have kids. It wasn’t long ago when it was considered “taboo” if blacks and whites dated. We’re not far gone from those times so it’s hard for many people to adjust, I guess. Miscegenation — the mixing of different races — is not something everyone likes or agrees with.
You said: “Were people for Gods sake, not OUTSIDERS. Were citizens of the world, and in this case, the U.S. - we are your EQUALS. You cant claim personal/emotional preference here. You can claim racism.
At least be HONEST about it. Damn.”
Yes, we’re people, but the issue of race is a highly complex one. If I have racist feelings I have my reasons to, and I do think that prejudice or discrimination is a natural human compulsion, one we have every right to express, and I think that compulsion or urge can be suppressed in various ways. I think the media puts black hip-hop subculture on a pedestal to the point where many whites want to be “black,” and that bothers me. I think to a certain extent some white women feel it is OK to date black men who have that “thug” mentality and that can lead to problems for the women!
Look, blacks who assimilate into white western civilization, I applaud! They have no choice if they want to succeed. But that doesn’t change the fact that the majority of blacks do not assimilate well, or want to uphold that negative stereotype. Maybe I’m more of a classist, I don’t know, but I do know that I don’t feel safe around certain types of black people and if you read Klinger’s article (in Rachel’s original post at the very top), you will have an idea of what I mean.
I think it’s great if people fall in love, but it’s always more than just love, in my opinion.
You raise the issue of rape being an act of violence, and I agree, but it is also sexual. You’re right — there are predators of all races. Race complicated things, not just in America but all over the world. The recent riots in France, for example. Race is always going to be a divider for people.
You said: “And as someone whose friends are rape survivors, let me tell you - WOMEN HATE RAPE TOO, dammit. Dont bring RAPE into your warped ideas of sexuality and sexual preferences. Unless youre trying to tell us something?”
When I read the Klinger article, I was appalled that here in America a woman can’t even walk down the street without suffering aggressive harrassment from men… not white men! Hispanic men, black men. The idea that the races are the same, that men are the same of each race and how they generally treat women is the same is wrong IMO. The arrogance of these hispanics, saying that she should “giggle” or “like it.” This mentality is coming to our neighborhood, folks! I am a white man and I will protect white women. I will not apologize for that.
You said: “If you live in an area w/out many black people (or any ethnic minorities, I suspect), and youre GRATEFUL FOR THAT, then how in hell do you THINK you know that stereotypes are based on TRUTH? Can you not understand the contradiction in that? Dont you dare look at the crap on TV and think that black people are even mostly like that. YOU DONT KNOW, by your own admission. And youre not likely to know, with the racist attitudes you have. Last time I checked, the owners of Fox and VH1 (the channels producing most of the minstrel shows) were white. The same for the record companies that put out most of the gangsta rap. Just because they pay people to pander to the lowest common denominator does not mean that that media product represents ANYONE but the lowest common denominator.”
The media is interesting. Commercials especially… ever notice how they always represent black men as “wise and smart” and the white guys are airheads? That’s another post for another thread. Look, I know that not all blacks maintain the “thug” stereotype. But I am wary because of the amount of black-on-white crime that goes unreported in America. Why? because it is politically incorrect to do so. can’t make blacks look bad!
The majority of men who run the media are not white, but jewish. That’s a whole other thread and can of worms right there.
You said: “No, its your racism and sexism that are getting you into trouble. Not the topic at hand.”
Let me tell you something: My girlfriend’s brother is married to a black woman. They have three daughters, they’re gorgeous girls! My girfriend is the girls’ aunt, and she has them over and babysits them a lot, but they are in middle school now and one in high school. They’re as cute as can be, and they’re smart as well. I don’t look at my girlfriend’s nieces with any hate, just love!
So maybe I’m just an idiot? I don’t hate people. I just have feelings at times that I think are instinctive. I am dealing with it as best I can. I guess I am a pretty peculiar animal: ” a white racist who likes women with big butts”
I’m being somewhat facetius there…
Anyway, I respect your views, Lyonside. Thanks for the sharing of ideas.
Alex: About time you admitted you’re a racist (dude, it’s obvious).
What you call natural/biological, I call societal/cultural. I’m not going to get into all the ways - they’re obvious. You’re so wrapped up in your stereotypes, you can’t see how often you contradict yourself in each post.
So you have biracial family members. I hope to hell they read this and learn to stay far, far away from you.
I’m done here. Go find somewhere else to troll. Your sheets need washing.
Dana - fair enough! I will think on what you said.
Sarah - Well, I think that beauty has constants. The “lighter” skinned black women tend to get more attention from what I have read in the black community, that lighter-skinned black women are the more desirable. African american women with “lighter” features “or european-like features are more desirable. I am white, so I have the european/white idea or standard of beauty. I’ve seen many women who are mixed and was even attracted to one girl by the name of Sandy when I worked at the Limited Express at the mall back in 1992. But she looked very white, even though she had a black parent. There’s an african american woman on the Maxi glide infomercial that I think is really hot, so hey — it’s about the woman. However, I prefer white women, and am with a wonderful woman for the past 7 years. I should have mentioned that earlier, but I didn’t think I’d be getting in too deep here and hey, this is my fourth post!
Dana - in regard to your last post: I am not a registered poster at Stormfront, although I lurk there as well as at Vanguard News Network. Why haven’t I registered there? Not that committed or at the point where I need to do that. From what I’ve read at those forums, they post a lot of stuff that is “preaching to the choir” and I don’t know if that is constructive. With the illedgal immigration issue becoming a big problem, I sought online some “support group” style stuff and came upon some White Nationalist websites. I am not as extreme in thought as them but I agree with some of what they say, especially the black-on-white crime that goes unreported in America. Double standards on hate crimes and things like that. Pat Buchanan’s new book discusses the “Balkanization of America” and I agree with that. I also listen to Glenn Beck on ocassion, Limbaugh, Hannity and those guys. I like the discourse, the offering up of ideas. Yeah, I will read what the White Nationalists are saying just as I will listen to the conservative radio and even peek in at MSNBC every now and then to see what Tucker is talking about. Probably more information than you wanted
To answer your question, I chose to post here because I felt compelled to, I like the subjects here which talk a lot oabout race issues. The posters here seem like good people, and perhaps I have an unconscious urge to share my feelings with strangers.
I will say this: I’m a wimp! I don’t like “flame wars” and the like and it stresses me out when that happens. Posting online is an emotional investment for me, and I have to get away with it every now and then. This seemed a safe place to me, but I know that can change. I don’t think any of you are flaming me, and am enjoying the back-and-forth although I do tend to post long bloated posts. This is time consuming as well - I’ve been posting replies in this thread for the past hour at least, but it’s fun to exchange ideas.
In regard to me saying that “if I was black I would want a white woman,” I would… I prefer white women and if I was black I would think I would still have that preference but that’s impossible to say.
I think when black men say that they would be with black women more but they are too complicated to be with, that intrigues me. I think those black men are trying to justify why they’re with a white woman and not just admitting that they prefer white women!
I don’t have all the answers. Dana - no hard feelings! I respect you and your viewpoints as everyone here.
Sammy - thanks!
BTW, I have to admit that I am a bit ignorant on Rachel’s Tavern. If the majority of you are african american, know that I did not realize that. But if so, then great — the sharing of ideas is always a good thing and perhaps my perspective can give that “devil’s advocate” side of things.
Lyonside - I never intended to anger you, but I respect your feelings. Let me say that I do not in any way ever condone rape or any manner of violence.
Dana - as to your last post, yes it only hurts me when I find that women to be beautiful/sexy/attractive. An unnattractive white woman with a black man doesn’t bother me as much… but it still gets my attention.
Objectifing works both ways baby!
Oh, totally, ronnie
.
Alex -
I do not have a problem with you at all as a black man. Your feelings are instinctive on so many levels. You just have to understand the root of your racial protection mechanisms. Some people are born that way and you happen to be part of that group of people.
I applaud you for coming to terms with your feelings and emotions. That shows emotional intelligence. Most whites will never get to that level in their life time.
I hope you continue to make strides.
>Some people are born that way and you happen to be part of that group of people.
Ron: You really think people like Alex are born and not made by their parents, their families, and their experiences?
So people who have fallen in love with those of a different race are, what? Unnatural? Or perhaps, less animalistic? Which would make them more civilized, I guess?
“Damn negroes. Can’t you see it’s all your fault?”
Of course you do. And we have every right to call you a racist douchebag when you do. Or was that just me?
What the media defines as “Black culture” is not “Black culture”. Those are called stereotypes, and stereotypes = bad. ‘Kay?
“Won’t somebody PLEEEAAASE think of the White women?!!”
…
Now you’ve got me “taking off my earrings”.
Let’s take a look at the history of White western culture, shall we?
- genocide
- colonialism
- appropriation
- gentrification
- manifest destiny
Wow, who wouldn’t want to be invited to that party? Now, I realize that you didn’t mean any of those things. You just wanted us to be good little house negroes - “clean and articulate” - right? Of course I’m right. But you fail in the following areas:
#1: You fail to realize that “White western civilization” =/= all civilized society. In other words, White =/= Right.
#2: You base your generalizations on stereotypes - not only of Black people, but of women as well. (My guess: You haven’t been around either very often.) And despite what you believe, stereotypes are not based on truth; they’re most likely based on one person’s truth.
Y’see, a long time ago, a White man met a Black man. Then that White man told another White man about the Black man he met. White man #2 came upon another Black man, but instead of getting to know him *as a person* he went on the assumptions that all Black man must be exactly like the Black man his friend met.
Let’s clear up this bit of confusion now, shall we? *ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE NOT ALIKE*. It’s called “inviduality”. It’s a very simple concept, and since you seem like an intelligent - although very ignorant - person, I’m sure you’ll catch on quickly.
Then allow me: YOU’RE A RACIST.
And I don’t feel safe around certain types of White people. As well as some Asian-Americans, Latin@s, and even a few Black people. I guess I’ll have to go underground a live in a bunker. Pobre mi!
Ah! Now I’m definitely sure! You DON’T keep company with women!
Ladies, raise your hand if you’ve received unwanted attention from White men! *raises hand*
Remember that little concept earlier called “individuality”.
*LOL!
So all of us Black, Latina, Asian-American, and Native American are just chopped liver, I suppose? Also, what makes you think White women *want* your type of protection?
Way to perpetuate the stereotype.
Wow. What news programs are *you* watching?
Racist and anti-semitic. What a keeper!
…’Scuse me. I just threw up in my mouth a little.
“And I allow them to be in my presence whenever acceptable.”
“Despite the abundance of melanin.”
NOW you understand!
“As long as they’re White, or a reasonable facsimile thereof.”
“I can’t shove my head up my ass any further than it already is!”
“Even though they’re wrong.”
Crap..I thought I fixed all of my tags before posting.
Rachel, little help?
What an eerily polite white supremacist. I can imagine him apologizing as he drives by with a noose and a burning cross. This hurts me more than it hurts you. Ha ha ha… trying but failing to laugh away the profound creepiness.
Ron - thanks!
Lyonside - You believe in environment over biology, that environment shapes/makes the person. I don’t agree with that as I think DNA has a lot to do with things. It’s complicated. We’ll have to agree to disagree!
Angel H - no, I don’t think people of different races who fall in love are unnatural. Nature snares us all to the sexual beauty of women, regardless of race.
Yes, you have every right to call me a racist douchebag. We all have freedom of speech. I understand that stereotypes are usually negative, but I feel that stereotypes exist because they are based on truths. That doesn’t mean that all people are a certain way, of course I know that.
Angel H - you bring up Western Civilization - I think the West thrives when there is structure. In America today we see that breaking down to a certain degree… the war on God and religion, the lack of morals, the decadence… these are interesting times we’re living in. That’s why America is so precious because we’ve always been moral, or at least tried to be.
I understand — of course I do — that not all black people are the same, nor are all white people the same or any other race, etc. We’re all individuals who have choices to make.
The rest of your points - fair enough. I’m not saying I have all the answers.
Okay guys, I’m going to take a break and enjoy the holidays. I hope you all have a safe and happy Christmas and New Years.
-Alex
Yet, according to your posts, the only women with sexual beauty are White with a “good waist-to-hip” ratio. (You even state that if you were a Black man, you would prefer a White women.)
And I will continue to do so.
I don’t think you do understand because in every single post, you rely on idiotic stereotypes to further your point, especially in light of the fact that most of the knowledge you’ve received about Black people has been through the MSM.
What history books have *you* been reading?
>What history books have *you* been reading?
The ones that teach that the native americans… oops, the book said “Indians”… “disappeared,” leaving the wilderness open to (white) settlers, that slaves were happy and taught Christianity and that that was the POINT of slavery, and that any one of us can grow up to be President (and not, say, upper class folks with political connections at a young age, as has been the case for almost everyone so far.) Oh, and every European immigrant assimilated like THAT, learned English on the boat over, and became Rockafellers, all of ‘em… So why can’t modern (brown) immigrants do the same?
That book - It’s sandwiched between Mein Kamf and the transcript of Trent Lott’s speech praising Strom Thurmond.
ETA: Under “Fiction.”
“I have to admit that it kills me inside a little when I see a beautiful Sister with a white guy too.”
Well, Sammy, then I’d say to you what Whoopi said to the “brothas” who criticized her so sharply for dating Ted Danson:
“Where are my flowers from YOU?”
Aaah, I missed so much… anyways, it’s interesting that Alex simultaneously expresses pride in living in a 90% white neighborhood, has a distinct distaste for black male/white female relationships, yet extols the virtues of assimilation. *hand stapled to forehead* Assimilation is moving into your neighborhood and marrying into your family, Alex! Assimilation is a process of getting close enough to form social bonds and foster cultural commonality… or are black Americans supposed to assimilate by watching TV while taking copious, detailed notes, “safely” tucked away in all-black enclaves?
“yes it only hurts me when I find that women to be beautiful/sexy/attractive”
Ah, I knew it… *insert reference to Ice-T’s wife here*
“Thats why America is so precious because weve always been moral, or at least tried to be.”
Dude, no. Throughout which era did America try to be moral? Please don’t say the 50’s. I’ve asked nicely.
“I am a white man and I will protect white women. I will not apologize for that.”
How? Self-proclaimed chivalrous guys are often “armchair knights”, but perhaps you’re different. How have you protected the fragile flower of white womanhood thus far, and how have these white women responded?
“But I am wary because of the amount of black-on-white crime that goes unreported in America.
___________________________________________
Wow. What news programs are *you* watching”
He probably isn’t getting it from the “liberal Zionist news”… he’s probably read Taylor’s chimney fodder, or something.
I cosign Lyonside entirely on free speech going both ways and Alex’s racism. I just don’t understand how he can opine about black males’ motivations and claim that stereotypes about blacks are well-substantiated by reality if he freely admits to having a self-imposed limited amount of experience with real-life black people. *shrugs*
In addition to that, his posts reveal a common assumption about IR daters firmly based in a little something called the fundamental attribution error. Alex — and many other opponents of IR dating — assume that when he sees a white woman with a black man that she’s been “spirited away” from his potential dating pool permanently, that she only dates black men, and vice versa, that that black man prefers white women to all others. If people who engage in interracial relationships are rare, those who do so exclusively are even rarer. Many of the women that you implicate in this conspiracy against white men may have only dated a handful of non-white men in their lives, and you just happen to see them on that day with one of that handful. Of course, you could be one of those guys who sees white women who engage in relationships with any black man as forever “tarnished”, in which case it wouldn’t matter to you.
ah, “assumes”, not “assume”
assume that when he sees a white woman with a black man that shes been spirited away from his potential dating pool permanently
And that despite the fact that apparently the only possible reasons the white woman could be with a black man are that she wants a thug or that she’s heard stories about the size of his penis.
Liking a particular person of another race, and then, after you’ve broken up, later liking a particular person of your own race, evidently isn’t an option.
You’d think that, if most white women who date black men do so because they want thugs, they’d quit in disappointment once it becomes apparent that only a small minority of black men are actually thugs.
That, and I reiterate, interracial dating is the natural by-product of assimilation. The black man with a white woman that men like Alex may assume is a thug or a pimp has a high likelihood of adhering more closely to mainstream/”white” culture than they do. If you’re a black man raised in a mostly white enclave, who are you going to relate best to culturally, what beauty standards are you going to accept, and what race of women will your social circle primarily consist of? But of course, the idea that a interracially dating black man may have met his white girlfriend through/while hanging out with his white male friends is, of course, preposterous. If a person wants to believe that sharing a bed/making a family with a white person is proof of a black man’s seething hatred of white people, then they’re ideologically wed to white nationalism “through sickness and health, til’ death do they part.”
So, Alex, you’ll be glad to know that “once you go black, you’ll never go back” is an untrue stereotype. About your belief in the general verity of stereotypes, does this belief only apply to stereotypes that whites often hold about other groups, or do you also believe the stereotypes that other groups often hold regarding whites?
Oh my goodness i never thought of it like this.