Rachel's Tavern- Shakesville Comment on Whiteness and Racial Awareness
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- Bottles, Breasts, and Mothering “Choices”
- NAACP Class Action Lawsuit on Subprime Loans
- We Have a Future Blogger
- I’m Afraid President Obama, Himself, is a Bit of Coward on the Race Issue
- Highly Skilled US Immigrants are Emigrating: What’s the deal?
- Troll Comments Galore
- Mark’s Spinach Face
Nov
5
I’ve Read More Sexist Comments From Black Men This Week Than I Have Read In the Past Year
Filed Under Black/African American Issues, Gender and Sexism by Rachel
First, there is a campaign to “protect” black women from rape, and the problems with that view point are numerous and are articulated in this thread by brownfemipower. My personal view is that we should stop rape, not try to have men protect women from rape. (BTW I love bfp’s police brutality anology, where she sarcastically, says we should have whites protect black men from police brutality.) I should add that I do have much respect for those who reframed the post to supporting black women or blogging for justice.
Then, Francis, who has since apologized, puts up this bad thread about the West Virginia Hate crime victim. He deleted the bad part, but still doesn’t want to admit that sexism and gender has anything to do with why he was wrong to make the comments he made.
Then we have Dexter, who wants women to submit to men–for the Bible tells him so. 
(Did you catch the funny?) He’s commenting over at this thread. (I honestly don’t know if he’s black, but an educated guess says he is.) Here’s his first comment that set it all off:
I have to say that I agree with Polow to a degree. Hes making a blanket statement that doesnt apply to all black women, but it in many cases its valid.
Respect is mututal in a relationship, but the man maintains a leadership role and the woman one of support. This is grounded in christian ideology.
The word submissive has been stigmatized as being tantamount to slavery so it triggers negative emotions on sight. This is not the case. Its just a matter of a woman being able to embrace that she and her mate play different roles.
Many black women just dont respect the black male so they refuse to relinquish any control. Beyonces Independent Woman was a black girl anthem for months. The whole concept of being unneeding of any male assistance and companionship is almost an exclusively black phenomenon. Something brought to my attention by author Tariq Nasheed.
Regardless of color, no man wants to deal with a combative and unyielding woman. Its life draining.
In BFP’s thread mentioned above we have this guy, who doesn’t want to listen to any bra burning, man hating feminists. 
? Here’s his sample quote:
You understand that my response is satirical right? It doesnt imply that you want the continued rape of black women; it points out how silly it is of you to actually scold me for an anti-rape post. Gina at whataboutourdaughters.blogspot.com forever bemoans black celebrity activist not, in her opinion, sufficiently speaking up about Dunbar Village; I do with my little platform, and you give me shit for that.
I understand; you are woman, and I can hear you roar. You dont need a man, and you certainly dont need a man to protect you. If ever in life you and I some how ended up in the same place at the same time and you are attacked, I will do as you wish and not protect you. Ill just stand there and intellectualize about changing the culture instead.
But as a man, which is what I am; I will not apologize for my manly instinct to protect my sisters. If that makes me a bad guy, then I hope that I am a horrible guy; and I strive to be worst.
And then this post by Field Negro, has problems too. In my view, it’s a little too sympathetic to an accused rapist, and there is very little evidence provided in the post to support the level of skepticism.
By no means should this be viewed as a blanket attack on black men, since sexism is fairly universal problem among men, and I could put up a similar post for white guys 52 weeks a year.1I’m just surprised to see so many of these comments in such a short time. Perhaps that whole “protecting our women” made me notice some of the sexist condescension. Any time I hear the phrase “our women” (or “our men” for that matter) I’m uncomfortable. I don’t like a possessive pronoun describing an entire gender (and believe me this kind of talk is rampant in any discussion of interracial relationships, which is probably why I’m sick of hearing it).? I should also note that some Black men put up good posts, and challenged sexism. Check out Kevin’s comment smack down on some idiot. Plez, rephrased the theme to say: Blogging for Justice - Against the Rape of Black Women.
What’s even more frustrating is that on some levels the whole “protection” idea is an attempt to do something good–bring attention to two horrible crimes against black women which have gotten little media attention. I just think that any discussion that starts with the idea of protecting women from something is insufficient. We don’t need to be coddled or talked down to, and if we got rid of rape we wouldn’t need to be protected from rape either. Furthermore, the men that we would supposedly protect us are generally the same guys who are most at risk for sexually or physically assaulting us. Most women are assaulted by friends, husbands, boyfriends, fathers, uncles, brothers, classmates, and other men who we know. Stranger rapes are very uncommon. I guess I’d like to see men work to stop rape and protecting doesn’t do that.
Oh, and I don’t even know what to say to Dexter.
And I almost forgot, this thread with the infamous Mike Reynolds (who I still think is a white guy pretending to be black) where he claims he’s a feminist.? Honestly, except for the fact that I about fell of my chair laughing I would have banned him. For those who’ve been around here for a while, you know he’s getting back to his old self, which means he will get banned again.
For anybody interested in a more feminist oriented discussion of the Megan Williams case here are the posts I’ve put up on this site about the case. They are in reverse order.
Rachel’s Tavern Posts on West Virginia Hate Crime Case
Mail Bag: What Do I Think About the West Virginia Hate Crime Coverage?
The West Virginia Hate Crime Case: May Be Even Worse Than Previously Reported
Updates in the West Virginia Torture Case
More About Those Attackers in the West Virginia Hate Crime Case
Black Woman Attacked, Sexually Assaulted, and Held Captive in West Virginia
- I should note that there is survey data that suggests that on average African American men are less sexist than men from other racial groups.? That also tends to match with my own experiences.? Of course, less sexist doesn’t mean egalitarian. [back]
Comments
66 Responses to “I’ve Read More Sexist Comments From Black Men This Week Than I Have Read In the Past Year”
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“I honestly dont know if hes black, but an educated guess says he is.”
Oh? And what racial stereotypes are we basing this on?
It may just be possible that I have come to the right place to actually get some educated feedback on this post: “My Three Sexist Assumptions of the Apocalypse”
While the crime against the woman in West Virginia was indeed horrible, why has there been so little news coverage about the teenagers who attacked and raped a black women in Dunbar Village earlier this summer? After gang raping this black women the teens then poured alcohol, nail polish remover and ammonia on her body, according to a police report, presumably trying to destroy evidence of their deeds. Violence against women seems to be increasing in this country, despite attempts to bring awareness to this issue.
Malik, what is your theory?
Rachel said:
“I just think that any discussion that starts with the idea of protecting women from something is insufficient. We dont need to be coddled or talked down to, and if we got rid of rape we wouldnt need to be protected from rape either.”
I agree wholeheartedly, Rachel. I worked in a Domestic Violence/Sexual Assault prevention agency before working in the financial sector. The men I worked with were committed to educating (appropriately) children and adults on these issues - from Kindergarten to the elderly.
For those who are serious about “protecting” women and girls, there are plenty of non-profit organizations to volunteer one’s time and energy to.
Rather than one saying, “We need to protect our women”, one could say, “I am going to commit to investing some of my time and energy to reduce violence, sexual assault, and neglect in my community.”
Further, reducing crimes likes these also involves educating boys and men about these issues.
Blessings To All,
-Adam
Oh goodie!
Its great to see the racial harmony. Ive now been called a sexist by Black, Chicano, and white women alike; and all for doing an anti-rape post.
Instead of critiquing Black men, I think white women would do well to concentrate on the little fucking bastards that come forth from your loins, that have and continue to terrorize the earth from corner to corner spreading their xenophobic, euro-centric, misogynistic, caveman culture that is the basis of the rape culture that you want to rid society of.
Maybe if you raised some better humans, we wouldnt have to deal with the fruits of the seeds those minions plant.
Bryan, I’ll try to send some people over your way to comment.
Yobachi said, “Instead of critiquing Black men, I think white women would do well to concentrate on the little fucking bastards that come forth from your loins, that have and continue to terrorize the earth from corner to corner spreading their xenophobic, euro-centric, misogynistic, caveman culture that is the basis of the rape culture that you want to rid society of.”
Well I can’t speak for anyone else, but I do spend a significant amount of time and energy focusing on white men, and if you read my site for a while, you will see that.
You can add this Native American woman to the people calling you out on your sexism, Yobachi. You don’t use sexism to attain “racial harmony” unless you are trying to bond with white men, perhaps? Maybe it would be better to go back to Women of Color Blog and reread the comments, the information, the advice you were given and actually listen and take it to heart. I know it’s hard for you in your superior position to listen to us lowly inferior women in need of protection with any seriousness, but give it a try, big ol’ macho man.
Hey Yobachi: the children of white women are responsible? Not their fathers? Not larger society?
How.. mysogynist. As a daughter of a white woman, I object!
(and now you’ve been called out by a biracial woman too…)
Yobachi, I have read the entire thread at bfp’s and now your response here, and I have two things to say.
1. You really don’t seem to understand that there is a fundamental difference between “protecting women from rape” and “stopping rape.” Most women I know and admire, as was demonstrated so obviously at bfp’s, very much want the latter, as it is a solution, rather than the former, which simply masks the problem while limiting women’s rights and abilities to care for themselves. We don’t need patronizers and protectors to stop rape from happening to us, we need allies in stopping rape from happening to anyone.
2. You’re so set on proving yourself right and everyone else wrong that you simply cannot see how misogynistic you’re being. Seriously, you would stand by and let bfp get raped because she “doesn’t need a man”? Whether you meant it as satire or not, that’s really fucking offensive, especially just for her asking a question. bfp has done fucking plenty to back up her words and to stop rape and violence against women, and you’re going to talk shit about her and talk about “letting” her be raped because she asks a question about word choice? Real fucking mature.
Rachel should look at the “bastards” who come forth “white women’s loins” rather than focusing on black men? Rachel has often focused on all men, and rapists can be of any race, not just white men.
And, um, I hate to tell you this but women aren’t just baby factories. We are more than just the product of their “loins” and we only have so much power over those who spring from them. We’re entirely capable of speaking for ourselves and deciding to speak; we don’t need a man telling us he’ll protect us so long as we shut up and only talk about what he thinks is appropriate. What we do need are men who are willing to listen and support women and work alongside us to end all rape.
And you can add multiracial women to your list now, too, ‘kay?
Whoops, Lyonside beat me to it.
Lyonside, their farthers are the children of white women. The white men that white women raise don’t grow from the mud.
Maybe focus on those caveman culture spreading folks from day one, and we’d have nothing to talk about here.
Yobachi said, “Lyonside, their farthers are the children of white women. The white men that white women raise dont grow from the mud.”
The point is that women don’t raise those children alone. Their fathers and the larger society also impact those children. You can’t blame only mothers when children act jacked up.
And I’m really biting my tongue cause I wanna say something not nice…Well, let me just say this. I’m not gonna blame your mom for how you’re acting in these threads. Perhaps some of your sexist attitudes came from your mother, but I’d guess that the larger society has had a much bigger influence on your views with regard to gender.
I don’t blame only mothers.
I’m pointing out that instead trying to synthesize my race, white women would be far more effective if you did something about the people who’s development you have control over, and who then control the world and drive such culture that you speak of.
The real global war on terror starts in white folks homes; in the delivery room.
And say what you feel, lets get it all out on the table; cause I’m not holding mine.
Claiming women as property could be a maladaptive method of healing manhood wounded by white supremacy.
So Ken, when I say “my people” am I claiming all Black folks as my property, and doing so because my “manhood” is “wounded by white supremacy”?
When I talk about “my brothers”, am I condescend men do to my sexism against men?
In the same said Blogging For Justice, Lets Protect Our Women post where I spoke of “our sons, brothers, cousins”, what is your psychological analysis of me their? Who’s property was I claiming was whoms, and for what reason?
this is ridiculous. please add my arab-american-with-a-white-mom self to the list of all those against yobachi’s unrelenting hateful misogyny.
what kind of fool “protects” black women from rape in a way that includes berating them and threatening to allow them to be raped if he ever happens upon a rape in progress? somehow this reminds me of the paternalistic way that the u.s. government “protects” middle eastern women from their men by dropping bombs all over their countries.
nobody needs or wants this type of protection, and no type of “protection” at all will end rape (i don’t know how many times this has to be reiterated).
rachel, keep up the good work
Day 2
Yobachi, a talented, up-and-coming blogger on socio-political issues involving race,
meets Rachel, the premier white anti-racist blogger with a strong feminist bent,
on her home turf.
… and all her homies got her back.
Let’s tune in as we hear:
i>So Ken, when I say my people am I claiming all Black folks as my property. and doing so because my manhood is wounded by white supremacy?
Yobachi,
Must you be so flip?
My comment had nothing to do with your wording, and probably doesn’t apply to you insofar as you don’t do that to women of color. (As opposed to the Dexters of the world with their literal interpretations of biblical scriptures)
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
But…By any measure it seems that you perceive black men as responsible for protecting black women from among other things, the ” xenophobic, euro-centric, misogynistic, caveman culture” of the “little fucking bastards”. Which really isn’t a bad thing, although it does place you in the position of someone who is actually *capable* of doing that.
As a Black Male, do you feel that your manhood is threatened by Your Peoples history of defeat at the hands of Europeans and/or present inability to overthrow the barriers to your prosperity set up by whites?
There’s also a difference between “our sisters” and “our women.” The former implies equality and working together. The latter implies ownership. “Supporting our sisters” and “protecting our women” are not equivalent phrases.
[...] in a brief footnote to a complaint about recent sexist blog posts by black men, comments that I should note that there is survey data [...]
Ok, Ken. I understand some of what your saying, but given some of your past statements, I’m asking you to please not let the thread derail here. Let’s keep the focus on the gender issue at hand.
BTW, froggy. Nice play by play. Yobachi should really view this as a great opportunity. He’s getting a lot of publicity (albeit not for good reasons)from bfp, from this site, and I’m sure from some others.
This is also a chance for him to consider another perspective and possibly open himself to some new points of view.
“This is also a chance for him to consider another perspective and possibly open himself to some new points of view.”
Yes, I’m really getting annoyed with Yobachi’s TONE. Here all these women are doing him a big FAVOR, by giving him all this food for thought and attention, and all we get is his nasty ATTITUDE, instead of the appropriate RESPECT and GRATITUDE.
Hey, I like turning the tables on the drowning maestro!
Isn’t it interesting that you note that Plez had no problem listening to women and changing his post to reflect those concerns? BfP also noticed that AAPP had no problem doing the same. Neither one felt the need to smack down women for asking a few questions or voicing an opinion.
“BTW I love bfps police brutality anology, where she sarcastically, says we should have whites protect black men from police brutality.”
That’s interesting.
when women are equal, they can fight racism more effectively. civil rights movements need fully empowered women to fight racism. in fact, civil rights movements such for blacks and asians ended in the 70s because of attitudes like yobachi’s. furhtermore, mainstream feminism must be anti-racist and anti-classist to succeed.
“Protecting our women.”
“Protecting our sisters.”
Aside from the wordsmithing, I am most troubled by the FACT that stranger rapes are uncommon. This problem is so deeply seated within peoples around the planet that a fundamental change is required.
It seems to me, and has always seemed to me, that people with the capacity to use force are not negotiated out of that position. They are forced out of that position. The response of the four women in Greenwich Village seems to be the most appropriate response along that entire continuum. First they sought to avoid - then they beat that ass.
How is it possible that EVERY single so-called progressive with knowledge of this is not outraged and mobilized around this issue. If folks do not establish the LEGAL ground for events like this, there will be no hope to stop rape through education.
As bad as police brutality may be, it’s not nearly as bad as being lynched by a mob…and white mobs tend not to attack black folks in America for many reasons - not the least of which is the near certainty of at least a few of those whites pushing up daisies. Thus, the practice of anti-Black violence has fallen to those with the means to carry it out with minimal consequences.
Perhaps I am too pessimistic, but I see only two solutions…education reinforced by men who have the respect of young males (so that it doesn’t look like an unappealing church choir) and increase capacity for self-defense by individual women. In a violent society such as this one, none of us are truly safe - we’re relatively safe or unsafe (generally aligned to our class.) And so, we bear uneven burdens for our own safety based on things like “race”, gender and class.
And given these factors, who could be in more threat of harm than a poor, black lesbian woman? Seems like all those bloggers who met with Bill Clinton could get this issue resolved with the next president of these yet-to-be-United States.
BTW:
“Perhaps I am too pessimistic, but I see only two solutionseducation reinforced by men who have the respect of young males (so that it doesnt look like an unappealing church choir) and increase capacity for self-defense by individual women.”
I should have said that this education should be led by women and reinforced by men. I find that works best. It’s the basis for an authentic partnership.
Great a summary of distorted views on gender by black men to prove that black men are just as sexist as white men. What is the point?
Lets talk about the silence of white women in corporate america at the racism and sexism heaped upon black women in the work place. That’s right. Dead silence and more racial pimping of black people.
Black men do not respond to this blog defensively before you are crucified by being the boogey man once again.
Black men are terrible creatures, please let us rid the earth of them!!!!
This is a comment I left at my blog concerning all of this. I figured I might as well leave it here too.
Sup Yobachi,
Ive read through the threads that you refer to. Honestly, I dont understand your defensiveness in this instance. I dont think that BFP or anyone else was attacking you by raising the questions that they did. I too, was turned off by the protection language. I should have said something, but I didnt, and shame on me for not speaking up.
I urge you to let go of the defensiveness here. Listen to what these women are saying to you. They are not the enemy. Lets face it; a lot of times we men need to be schooled. It should be expected that we will fall on our faces from time to time, even with the noblest of intentions. Our society has instilled a lot of fucked up notions in our heads, from birth, that need to be questioned and changed. None of us are exempt from it.
So it seems to me that rather than getting defensive and hypothetically suggesting that you wont protect the uppity feminists since they disagree with you on this, you should take this as an opportunity to reflect on the role you are playing in this struggle.
If we are to stand in solidarity with women, against the violence that they experience every day in more forms than we men can imagine, we must listen with an openness to accept that sometimes, try as we might, we will fall short of the goal. That is where the real learning and growth comes from.
I find this conversation absolutely baffling for so many reasons that I can’t even begin to describe. Anyway, admin, I have a question. In your footnote 1, you state as follows: “I should note that there is survey data that suggests that on average African American men are less sexist than men from other racial groups.”
Is there survey data out there that suggests the opposite as well?
Of all of the surveys that purport to examine how sexist men are based on racial categories (and I am sure there are plenty) what percentage identify African American men as the least sexist?
Just curious, because the way that you phrase the footnote suggests that the data you are referring to is an anamoly rather than the general rule. (I think you would agree that your personal experience is completely irrelevant).
Actually, contrary to popular belief, studies do show that BMs have a less dichotomous perception of gender roles, and are generally raised in a more gender-egalitarian manner. I’m not home right now, but when I get there, I’ll check my textbook so I can confirm and cite.
Have a few papers due and won’t be able to write much but I thought I should jump in..
Yobachi said,
Rachel said you were being sexist and even though you could have called her on white privilege (if you had any evidence) you went for the crude, the vile, and the sexist response. If ever there was a definition of irony.
Oh and the “little bastard” thing, so now all white folks are born evil right? Also, you are aware that there are tons of people born of white women who are also black right? Way to generalize and degrade their lives.
But in all honesty, why was it so hard for you to just hear what BFP said? All she said was that protection was problematic and only threads the surface of the structures that facilitate rape, and then you said you wouldn’t do anything but “intellectualize” if you ever saw her getting raped (a statement you later claimed was meant to be satire, how is rape ever satire?). You then pulled the equivalent of “I’m not playing anymore and I’m taking my ball with me” by charging that your “trying to help and getting slapped” was the reason for the way you responded. I’m utterly surprised at how you continue to miss the condescension in your comments. How would you feel about someone white saying he/she wanted to “help” people of color?
Ron said,
Yes, let’s talk about that… Do a search right here on this blog and read about some of Rachel’s work. Don’t worry, when you’re done with your homework, we will still have the energy to deal with sexism from men including some black men.
Dana, Bonnie Dill’s “Our Mother’s Grief” stated black men are more egalitarian with gender roles because they were denied jobs.
this education should be led by women and reinforced by men. I find that works best. Its the basis for an authentic partnership –Temple3
Yes. From “Killing Rage” by bell hooks. I substituted black/Latino/Asian/NA for black because it works for all these groups:
Concurrently, the negative consequences of sexist black/Latino/Asian/NA male domination will remain a taboo subject. Those of us who break the silence will be continually cast as traitors. Until this silence is repeatedly broken, blacks/Latinos/Asians/NAs will never be able to constructively address issues of positive gender identity formation, domestic violence, rape, incest, or black/Latino/Asian/NA male-on-male violence. We will not be able to challenge and critique sexism if the destructive impact of patriarchal thinking is always denied, covered up, masked as a response to racial victimization.
Individual, progressive black/Latino/Asian/NA heterosexual males who engage a critique of domination that takes feminist thinking and practice seriously as a radical alternative to the push to insitutionalize potentially exploitative and oppressive patriarchal regimes in black/Latino/Asian/NA life must be more willing to act politically so that their counter hegemonic presence is visible. Working in collective solidarity with black/Latino/Asian/NA women who are active in progressive movements for black/Latino/Asian/NA self-determination that incorporate fully a feminist standpoint, these black/Latino/Asian/NA men represent a vanguard group that could begin and sustain a cultural revolution that could vigilantly contest, challenge, and change sexism and misogyny in black/Latino/Asian/NA life.
What she said… and I mean seriously, what don’t most people understand about how and why saying “I’ll stand by and intellectualize while women get raped” is offensive and just plain wrong? Although I highly doubt prior to being accosted by big mean feminists, he had a yellow “S” on his chest and was running around, saving damsels in distress, fighting for the Afro-American way…
Sexism is institutional, symbolic and individual. The most effective way to combat sexism is to combat race, gender and class stereotypes. The best way to prevent another 20-year-old single black mom from being gang-raped at gunpoint and being told her rape trivialized rape is to combat race, gender and class stereotypes. In this case, stereotypes about blacks, women and sex workers.
Symbolic oppression translates into institutional and personal oppression. They reinforce each other.
I am really worried about the society that we live in when so many people come to the defense of rapists. The “you can only be raped once” rule which goes something like you can only cry rape once in your life; any future accusations will be looked upon as supsect - is to me a license to rape without fear of punishment. And calling the victim’s mental state into question - why don’t these defenders ever call the accused’s mental state into question - which to me is the more relevant question. I can’t really comment on issues like this - I can’t control my anger long enough to post in a meaninful way.
It’s like the Duke incident all over again. I could never figure out what really happened there. All I could find on the case was partisan and slanted in favor of the accused. Now everyone is saying that these folks were innocent - but I am not convinced. We only heard their side of the story - from their attorneys and from bloggers who were prejudiced in their favor. In my opinion, the jury is still out.
It is my fear that all rape cases will be handled in similar fashion. The victim will be crucified (the picture and name of the accuser was in the Duke case was plastered all over the internet) and justice won’t be served because people will take sides and not look at the facts dispassionately.
Looking at the facts dispassionately is what got the Duke defendants cleared.
Donna D:
That’s a great quote. As an aside - which is only tangentially related, I had a thought last month when my father told me he was going to see The Color Purple on stage.
My thought was about American cultural production and two elements: narratives with Black women at the center in normal (or largely normal) relationships with Black men…film, books (I seldom read fiction - so I’m useless there), songs, television, plays, etc.
I found it very difficult to come up with any items…most of what I came up with either centered male narratives or featured “black male pathology.” Anyway, I say all of that to say that dr. hooks’ quote is so compelling because the cultural ground on which that “revolution” would transpire is near barren (from my perspective).
I believe that can change, but it’s about a real partnership of ideas and action. There has to be more patience and respect if we are to move forward.
Have ever heard of the great American proverb, “The freest people in America is the white male and black female.”
The pedestal established for white women and her protectors is a symbiotic relationship.
Temple3, that revolution seems barren because women of color rarely speak out about sexism like they did at BFP’s and Rachel’s. IMO internalized sexism is 100x more prevalent in woc than internalized racism.
Ron, it’s funny you mention that quote because it’s 15 pages before my quote in the same bell hooks book. It’s based on the sexist mythology that black women slept with white men to negotiate when the reality was white men exploited black women.
Ever hearda slavery?
Here’s a place to start. Kevin Powell’s essay last week, Ending Violence Against Women and Girls.
Hey Ro, why don’t you have a read:
http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2007/04/27/1363139/SummaryConclusions.swf
the way I see it, the only reasonable conclusion about those who who think the jury is still out is that they are either stupid, in denial, or dishonest.
Hell, reasonable people can disagree about what is reasonable, but please, to say what you are saying, I almost think you that are intentionally trying to derail this thread. Don’t, because I think this thread is very interesting to the point of amusement.
Check out Killing Rage: Ending Racism by bell hooks especially the chapters
“The Integrity of Black Womanhood”
“Feminism: It’s a Black Thing”
“Revolutionary Feminism: An Anti-Racist Agenda”
and Ain’t I A Woman by the same author especially the chapters
“Continued Devaluation of Black Womanhood”
“The Imperialism of Patriarchy”
The chapter
“Racism and Feminism: The Issue of Accountability”
about racism in white feminism blew me away. I thought I read the entire book before but it turns out I only read three of the five chapters. It stopped me in my tracks. Line by line, what happened in the “first and second waves” of feminism is happening now.
so bell hooks is fun for everybody!
As much as we like to say mainstream white feminists ignore the Jersey Four, Dunbar Village and Deni case, the perps were black men.
So all six chapters are worth reading.
yobachi, your heart is in the right place but you couldn’t have been in all three places protecting the Jersey Four, the Dunbar Village victim and the 20-year-old Philadelphia sex worker, at the same time. Educating your brothers about feminism is the only solution.
Yobachi:
Instead of critiquing Black men, I think white women would do well to concentrate on the little fucking bastards that come forth from your loins, that have and continue to terrorize the earth from corner to corner spreading their xenophobic, euro-centric, misogynistic, caveman culture that is the basis of the rape culture that you want to rid society of.
It is not the child that comes from the womans body that is doing wrong because she/he was born white, or black, or whatever. It is in how the child was/is raised, which is only part of it. The other parts are how that child is affected by society at large, and the final most important part, is how that child meets the world, and in what way that child, as an adult, will be reactive, or proactive in how they handle the world around them. NO child is born hating anyone; they have to be taught to do such evil.
Children are born of TWO parents, not ONE. It is the responsibility of BOTH parents to raise their children to be prepared to learn to live in a world of differences, and to be accepting of differences. Once a person becomes an adult, they have to live with THEIR actions and not to continue in the same vein that parents may or may have not raised/taught them. Nor should that adult child blame Mommy and Daddy because parents did or did not do one thing or another as that child was growing up. Whether or not parents were racists or not, it is up to the ADULT to have the spine to be a man/woman and do right himself/herself, and not blame everyone in the world for the screw ups and wrongs THEY as adults make.
That is what a real man does.
And yes, the larger society has a hand in how it affects the children of this world, but, many so-called men out there in this country are only solely interested in their agendas, and not on the consequences of the hand they had in making babies that come into this world. Babies that should have real men for fathers. Real men who treat with respect ALL women, no matter what that womans race.
Whether ones parents were racists, deadbeats, philanderers, thieves, murderersthat is what the parents will have to answer to. An adult is man enough, (or woman enough) to take up the responsibility of THEIR lives. You (in the plural sense) can have the worst parents in the world, or the best parents in the world, in the end the life YOU live will be from the decisions YOU make. Not from the actions of your parents.
Comes a time, when a REAL adult makes their own way in this world.
They do not blame Mommy or Daddy for what the big, bad world does to them. A real man does not trash, beat down, hurt, humiliate, or destroy a woman (verbally, or physically) because she does not kowtow to his demands or ultimatums. A real man knows when to listen, and when to be quiet and heed the honest advice from a woman (no matter what her race) when she is speaking the truth to him.
America is a rape culture. It promotes the denigration of all women, but, especially of black women. Black women do not need protection. Black women have the right like all women to live and move about freely without fear of victimization at the hands of rapists and murderers. “Protecting” black women by allowing a society to exist that instills fear in black women whether in their home, or going outside of their home is not going to bring down the causes of rape (devaluation, disrespect, disregard of the personhood, humanity, womanhood of women), not to mention, takes the power of agency, out of the hands of black women; giving male escort to black women who leave their homes is not the answer; it is no more better than imprisoning them as if THEY are the ones who create and bring harm down on themselves, when in reality it is the perps out there who harm women who should have their right to freedom of movement taken away from THEM. Black women, like all women, need to live in a society where they can leave their homes at night just to go to the grocery store to pick up a carton of milk without fear of being kidnapped, tortured, raped, murdered, just because they are women. Black women, like all women, want to be able to walk down and across the streets in their neighborhoods without fear of some stranger pulling up in a car and attempting to harm them in any way, just because they are women. Black women, like all women, want to be able to safely navigate this country, this world, without fear of destruction from men, just because she IS a woman. The problem is not women. The problem are the men are rape and destroy women.
Change the way men are allowed to treat women as “bitches” and “hos”, change the way society okays men who stomp on the humanity of women.
On the other hand, black women definitely need protection from those of our black communities who are destroying us the most.
Some comments were made that stranger rapes are uncommon. Well, hell, of course they are uncommon. What stranger rapist is going to go all the way across town to rape a woman who lives in a neighborhood he knows nothing about, to rape a woman he knows nothing about, to attack a woman who is living in her own environment that she knows BETTER than he does? What stranger is going to jump out of the proverbial bushes and drag a woman into them, and rape her, not knowing what kind of self-defense class she may have taken? What stranger is going to accost a woman, sight-unseen, that day, and proceed to rape her, not knowing that that hand she has in her bag hanging from her shoulder, that hand he cannot see, may or may not, already be on the trigger of a loaded, and cocked, handgun?
As a stranger-rapist, a man takes a big chance on attempting to rape a woman whose habits he knows nothing about, unless he has already been shadowing her for sometime, and has learned of some of her habits of behaviour to corner her and rape her. Yes, stranger rapes do occur, but, they occur at a very small level. And yes, the chances of the rapist taking the gun from the woman is high, but, because of the way women are devalued in this society, unfortunately causes women to carry handguns which can escalate their chances of being raped AND murdered. And yes, some women have been able to get the drop on men who attempted to rape them, but, Yobachi, wouldnt you rather have a society that values the worth and humanity of all women, a society where men have more human regard for ALL women, no matter what their race? Where white men treat black women with the same human regard they want black men to show towards white women? A society where black men cease their sexist attacks upon black women in the black community?
You and I know, that all of America devalues and degrades black women more than any other race of women in America, and a huge portion of that degradation has been suffered by black women at the hands of BOTH white men and black men.
Yes, it was not just white men who were raping black women ( and little innocent girls) during slavery. It was black men as well. One of the other reasons that black women went North in the Great Migration was not only to escape away from sexual degradation at the hands of white men, but, also to escape sexual degradation at the hands of black men, as well.
Black women may have been able to escape from the huge amounts of sexual abuse that white men have done to them for 400 years, but, they have yet to escape from the sexual destruction that they continue to endure at the hands of those who are supposed to protect them the most.
If black men are so gungho on doing right by black women, they need to man up and accept that they are the ones who are abusing, raping, killing and attacking black women in their communities, more than anyone else out there in America.
It is those predators in our midst’s, that all women must fear, for those are the ones who know us better than any stranger rapist ever can know a woman. The men of our families, our communities are the ones who can, and often do, cause WOC the most destruction.
As for protection, well, I do not want anymore protection for black women and girls of the kind that has been dished out to black women/girls from inside the black community, and from without, such as the following:
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New York Post
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=494435
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=494593
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20071012_Jill_Porter
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040308/goodwin
Here also:
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/and-people-wonder-why-black-women-are-degraded-and-disrespected-in-america/
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2007/09/21/four-women/
Black women in America, and the world over, have suffered enough from the protection of the black community that has just about destroyed black women and girls.
The black women who do often speak out against rape and abuse in their black communities are often branded as traitors when some poor, put-upon black man (Genarlow Wilson, Mike Tyson, R. Kelly, etc.) is charged for raping a black woman or girl.
You (as in ALL men) want to see less violence against black women, try as MEN to work towards raising mens standards in how they should treat all women and girls. Try to raise sons who do not hit, slap, curse or beat a woman or girl. Try raising sons who are strong enough to work with women, not work against them. Try to raise men who will be MEN, not those so-called men who play-act, fake at or simulate at being a man. A strong man does not rape, batter or abuse a woman; only a weak man does such vicious behaviour.
Change the culture that we live in, change the way men are raised to view women as property, as pieces of meat to be consumed, as beings with no rights to autonomy or self-actualization, change the culture that looks upon women as less than human.
Change the way that women have to circumvent, the way women have to curtail their lives , at how women have to live their lives in fear of male aggression.
Until men in overwhelmingly large numbers decide that enough is enough of the killing machine of the rape culture that is America, women will have to continue to fear death at the hands not of persons unknown, but, most often, at the hands of person known.
[...] THE WORLD SAFE Jump to Comments Over at Rachels Tavern, she put up a post (http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=815) on comments made by? Yobachi of Black Perspective on his post, “Blogging For? [...]
Darko -
Have you ever heard of the WWI, WWII, Rwanda, Darfur, Vietnam, and Iraq. Men in power with guns or a system protecting their power will always exploit women. More women need to be in positions of power to stop institutional sexism and victimhood. How do you deal with choices women make in so-called free societies that perpetuate sexist attitudes.
We have two extremes: 1) Complete facist protectionism of women or 2) All out freedom of women whereby freedom of choice perpetuate sexism.
A middle ground must be established.
Sunday Blogwhoring: Armistice Anxiety…
by matttbastard
Desperately need a personal assistant to keep up with my rapidly expanding agenda. Rest assured I’d never be so intemperate an employer as the late Linda Stein, former manager of the Ramones, who was recently bludgeoned to death b…
What she said is no different than what white feminists want from white men. They are not extreme in their demands at all. Sexism exists everywhere and among all races. White feminism does not apply to men of color so they don’t feel obligated to listen to white feminists. But feminism is the same for all races.
The scary history of white feminism is also in the last chapter of Ain’t I A Woman
“Black Women and Feminism”
Check it out, one and all.
Ann,
You said it all.
While we’re at it, here’s another thing THAT CHAPS MY ASS. Killing Rage:
All too often progressive white women and men who are committed to feminist vision fall prey to liberal sentimental overvaluing of NA/Asian/black/Latino male pain in ways that lead them to accept sexist behavior from this group that they would rigorously challenge in interactions with white peers. These folks stand idly by as sexist NA/Asian/black/Latino men assault the dignity and integrity of NA/Asian/black/Latino womanhood.
That complicity for seeing sexism in NA/Asian/black/Latino life yet viewing it unproblematically is often shared by white individuals, even some liberal and progressive white feminists, who ignore and in some cases condone NA/Asian/black/Latino male sexism when it is articulated as a response to racist aggression.
Many NA/Asian/black/Latino males accept and perpetuate sexist/racist notions about NA/Asian/black/Latino manhood not only because they can receive more sympathetic attention from the dominant culture by focusing on wounded masculinity but because endorsing sexist thinking they also strengthen their alliances with white males.
Ron on November 9th, 2007 7:36 pm:
Have ever heard of the great American proverb, The freest people in America is the white male and black female.
The pedestal established for white women and her protectors is a symbiotic relationship.
Wow.
Sick.
I have not heard that viciously hateful phrase ever since I graduated from junior high school.
Damn. I thought that black woman-hating phrase had gone the way of the dinosaur, because only a man who hates black women would utter and truly believe in such a phrase, a phrase based on lies and myths first started by white men during slavery to justify their brutal rapes and beatings of black women and girls.
Hmm.
The black woman, and the white man were the only people free in America?
I guess if you consider forced, brutal, sadistic, perverted, savage rapes as a sign of freedom, then yeah, black women were as free as a bird, when it came to how vicious the white man could, and did mistreat, and seek black women’s anihilation:
Here are some examples of black women who were free just like white men:
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Q: Is there any ground to fear miscegenation with the colored race?
A: No, sir; it is all on the other foot.
Q: What do you mean by the other foot?
A: I mean that colored women have a great deal more to fear from white men.
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The Klans propensity for using rape as an instrument of terror is a matter of public record. Witnesses who gave testimony at a number of Reconstruction-era tribunals often confronted the issue directly. Essic Harris, a North Carolina freedman, had this to say on the subject:
Q: I understand you to say that a colored woman was ravaged by the Ku Klux Klan?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you hear of any other case of that sort?
A: Oh, yes, several times.That has been very common. The case I spoke of was close by me, and that is the reason I spoke of it. It has got to be an old saying.
Q: You say it was common for the Ku Klux Klan to do that?
A: Yes, sir. They say that if the women tell anything about it, they will kill them.
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After having lashed, kicked and pummeled her about the head with a pistol, one of the number stripped his pants down and sat down upon her face. While perpetrating these abuses, the nightriders mocked, You think you are white, you think you are rich, you curse white folks.
Like countless other victims, Wallace refused to either file a complaint or to speak publicly of the attack, fearing, as White put it, that the klansmen would repeat the deed or take her life.
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Then I was thrown upon the ground on my back, one of the men stood on my breast, while two others took hold of my feet and stretched my limbs as far as they could, while the man standing upon my breast applied a strap to my privates until fatigued into stopping, and I was more dead than alive. Then a man, I suppose a Confederate soldier, as he had crutches, fell upon me and ravished me.
During the whipping, one of the men ran his pistol into me, and said he had a hell of a mind to pull the trigger, and swore they ought to shoot me, as my husband had been in the God damned Yankee army, and swore they meant to kill every black-son-of-a-bitch they could find that had ever fought against them.
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Southern whites saw to it that blacks had no alternative to the brutal reality of sharecropping. Their control extended to every area of life; white rape of black women was endemic, like heat and humidity, and victims had no recourse to the justice system.
Winson Hudson, in the 1920s, recalls:
Back then, white boys would rape you and then come and destroy the family if you said anything about it. You would just have to accept it. They were liable to come in and run the whole family off. I couldnt walk the roads at anytime alone for fear I might meet a white man or boy. I couldnt walk the street without some white man winking his eye or making some sort of sound. This made me so angry because I had five brothers, and I heard my father almost daily warning them against even walking near a white girl or looking at them or going near a house unless they knew that white men were there too.
Because, you know, if a girl went through a trail or to the springthere wasnt no roads like nowjust a little wagon road, and if you were by yourself and met a white man, you just were almost sure to be raped.
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One of those guys ran and jumped on the wagon. He said, Im going to ride with you, Im going to ride. We were going by this houseand he got on the back of the wagon, and he was riding with us. When we got to the house, he took the mule from me and stopped the mule at the house, took the wagon from me and tied the mule to a tree in the yard. Then he made my sister get out and go in the house with him.
He raped my sister.
Like I said, she was about nine at that time.
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But, you can read the rest of how free black women were during slavery, Reconstruction and during segregation, here:
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/missing-white-woman-syndrome-part-2/
Heres my challenge to you, Ron.
Since you stated that hated lie, lets see you give examples of where black women were free just as much as white men in America, okay?
Show me where are all these facts of how free black women were in comparison to white men.
Give me concrete evidence, verified by anecdote and historical documentation.
I throw down the gauntlet to YOU to be man enough to back up this vile lie that black men, and white men, have been telling on black women for centuries, for decades.
Go ahead.
Compile and state your evidence.
Convince me.
PROVE IT TO ME.
Ultimately, sexist aggression by NA/Asian/black/Latino males towards NA/Asian/black/Latino females creates a cultural climate in NA/Asian/black/Latino life where gender wars and conflicts claim the attention and energy that could be constructively used to create strategies for radical intervention that would challenge and undermine the existing racist and sexist systems of domination. As long as the vast majority of NA/Asian/black/Latino males are brainwashed into thinking that sexist thinking enhances their lives, white patriarchy need never fear being dismantled by progressive NA/Asian/black/Latino male insurrection.
NA/Asian/black/Latino males who cling to sexist thinking and fantasies of patriarchal power need to know that a concrete engagement with feminist thinking would allow them to examine the ways their acceptance of patriarchal notions of masculine identity undermine their capacity to live fully and freely. No matter how clearly and passionately NA/Asian/black/Latino women active in feminist thinking and progressive black liberation struggle critique patriarchal thinking and action, it ultimately deprives NA/Asian/black/Latino males of the opportunity to construct self and identity in ways that are truly liberatory, that do not require the subordination and domination of anyone else, and ultimately only the testimony of NA/Asian/black/Latino males can bear witness to this truth.
We need to hear from NA/Asian/black/Latino males who have turned their gaze away from the colonizers face and are able to look at gender and race with new eyes. NA/Asian/black/Latino men who can hear anew the prophetic words of Malcolm X urging us to change our minds: Weve got to change our own minds about each other. We have to see each other with new eyes. We have to see each other as brothers and sisters. We have to come together with warmth. Any NA/Asian/black/Latino male or female who seriously contemplates this message of radical NA/Asian/black/Latino self-determination would necessarily embrace the struggle to end sexism and sexist domination in NA/Asian/black/Latino life.”
[...] went to town on sexist men of color at Rachel’s after I did of course and I wanted her to have (her) last (magnificent) [...]
Like I said on Nov. 7 here, Asian and black liberation movements in the 60s and 70s ended because of the problem of sexism in communities of color. I’m not just talking for myself here but for all POC in the US, even all POC in the world that don’t have white majority populations. Men of color are not free under racist domination or patriarchy. From the last chapter of Ain’t I A Woman:
The extent to which black men absorbed this ideology was made evident in the 60s black liberation movement. Black male leaders of the movement made the liberation of black people from racist oppression synonymous with their gaining the right to assume the role of patriarch, of sexist oppressor. By allowing white men to dictate the terms by which they would define black liberation, black men chose to endorse sexist exploitation and oppression of black women. And in doing so they were compromised. They were not liberated from the system but liberated to serve the system. The movement ended and the system had not changed; it was no less racist or sexist.
“Like I said on Nov. 7 here, Asian and black liberation movements in the 60s and 70s ended because of the problem of sexism in communities of color.”
Can you explain that. Are you suggesting that the BPP, RNA, SNCC and other groups ceased to conduct programs, hold meetings, raise dollars, lead action campaigns, and otherwise operate because the men and women in the organizations were at odds over sexism in communities of color? Do you believe external factors may have played an equal or greater part in these splits?
What was the anatomy of that schism? Did women simply cease to participate in organizations? Did folks of both genders walk away because they found themselves unable to find common ground on attacking sexism? What was the immediate organizational aftermath of that split for groups along gender lines - in other words, how did the respective genders of Black and Asian groups reorganize and restructure programmatically subsequent to the change?
I’ll stop there. I have more questions, but I’ll reach out to you directly since I’m sure that this was the original purpose of the thread. This isn’t really a relevant blog topic. Thanks.
Reread this part of the quote:
“By allowing white men to dictate the terms by which they would define black liberation, black men chose to endorse sexist exploitation and oppression of black women. And in doing so they were compromised. They were not liberated from the system but liberated to serve the system. The movement ended and the system had not changed; it was no less racist or sexist.
What bell hooks is saying is similar to what happened in the Asian American community in the 60s and 70s according to Making Waves, the Asian American second wave classic text and in Elaine Brown’s books. Perhaps the mainstream perspective is different from womens’ in these movements? The issue of sexism is important to keep in mind as we start “new” Asian and black civil rights movements.
Temple3, it’s like when wives think their marriage was over 20 years ago but the husband doesn’t realize it until the divorce.
People think they can’t fight racism, classism and sexism at the same time. There’s no conflict between focusing on racism, classism and sexism within communities of color. They reinforce each other. There are men of color all over who want to be lead in this area but WOC feel protective. Do not fear. People can walk and chew at the same time.
[...] 17, 2007 · No Comments Ann went to town on sexist men of color at Rachel’s after I did of course and I wanted her to have (her) last (magnificent) [...]
[...] 11, 2007 · 11 Comments The other day, BFP, Rachel and WOC bloggers lamented how “protecting our women” hurts women in communities of [...]